Original early copper brass radiators vs aluminum

[SWFL]

Are the original early copper brass radiators the best option, if they can be effectively cleaned out inside? Do proper radiator shops even exist anymore? I know it used to be common to rebuild old copper brass radiators by unsoldering the tanks, rodding out the tubes and cleaning everything in a boiling chemical bath before rebuilding them. I know around 2005 the EPA banned or restricted a lot of chemicals and I wonder if that effects what radiator shops can do or how good the job would be now with the substitute chemicals and lead free solder. Maybe it's better to use an aluminum replacement, with the expectation of a lower service life?

 

[Clb]

This is a story for the ages...
There's a metric +×÷= tonne of radiator threads here.
Due mostly to the cheap Chinese flood of junk.
There seems to be 1 decent one.
Fwiw
Red devil drain cleaner is still available in California......

I redid my oem unit rather than deal with it ( tin replacement).

 

[SWFL]

I've never heard of red devil drain cleaner. How does it compare to the old Prestone 2 part acid powder radiator flush and neutralizer, that was also banned? Is it possible to clean out a 40 year old radiator without taking it apart and boiling it in a now banned chemical bath? How about dealing with pinhole leaks without the stronger lead solder?

Is the one decent radiator you refer to an OEM one?

 

[IDIBRONCO]

Based on nothing but my primitive, old school opinion, I still believe that the old radiators are the way to go. If yours isn't leaking and it's still clean, I say to use it. My main prejudice against the aluminum/plastic radiators is the cheap factor and the fact that they usually don't last very long. If I was to use an aluminum radiator, it would be an all aluminum one like Mishimoto sells. Those aren't cheap though. Neither is a radiator shop if you can still find one.
I plan to use the brass/copper radiators as long as I can.

 

[catbird7]

Some rad shops remain! Just a year or two ago I had a brass rad re-cored at a shop couple hours from home. It was expensive, want to say he charged me $600ish for a rad and heater core for my old CJ Jeep.

 

[Nero]

Cost can vary wildly. Macs radiators quoted me $1200 for a recore. Jegs sells both a new brass for $790 and 4 core solid aluminum champion for $450ish

 

[u2slow]

not many rad shops remain. they struggle to be competitive with enviro laws and labour costs.

the brass/copper does deteriorate. you can do all that work and have a used rad that wont handle more that 5-10psi before developing more pinholes.

last I priced a local recore, it was double the price of an aluminum replacement off amazon.

 

[FrozenMerc]

Bit of a back story. I designed and tested heat exchangers for a powersports manufacturer for many years. 100% of our heat exchangers were aluminum, but we would look into Copper / Brass any time a cost increase came in from the supplier.

All other things being equal, Copper / Brass radiators are more thermodynamically efficient then aluminum. However, copper alloy sheet work hardens to a much higher degree than aluminum, this limits the amount of form work that can be done to a thin piece of sheet. Therefore, an aluminum radiator can be created with a higher fin density, more intricate fin design, and from thinner sheets than a copper / brass one. Aluminum also can be extruded into very complex geometries that copper / brass can't be. This enhanced formability produces a radiator that has a higher heat rejection capacity than a similar sized copper / brass unit. Also, cheap, readily available aluminum alloys are more corrosion resistant than similarly priced copper alloy sheet. High cost copper / brass alloys are available that have better corrosion resistance, but they are generally quite a bit more expensive and not as readily available without having to purchase an entire mill run.

 

[WMO4IDI]

Just adding my 2 cents...

Aluminum & plastic hate vibrations, they prematurely crack or bust a seal because the crimps fail. They don't withstand heat cycles as well either.

A copper& brass one will handle all that without any issue but might eventually get pinholes if the system is contaminated with minerals from using non-deionized water to mix the coolant.

Personally I'd stick to the old school rads simply due to longevity, I'd rather braze it myself for repairs or a recore than change rads every 3 to 5 years...

A plumbing torch, some solder & flux is all you need, brazing is pretty straight forward, an easy skill to practice & get good at. There are plenty of companies in the business of making brass cores for the industrial sector, they are available.

Then again, I practically need to have a gun to my head to pay someone to do something I can handle myself with a bit of motivation & planning... To each their own.

 

[Clb]

For those who are searching for this, when my v series in my sig line puked the oem rad only thing available was the plastic tank stuff.
I installed 1 each year for 3 years before I had the copper and brass rebuilt.
It's still fighting the good fight.

 

[u2slow]

Just adding my 2 cents...

Aluminum & plastic hate vibrations, they prematurely crack or bust a seal because the crimps fail. They don't withstand heat cycles as well either.

The affordable aluminum radiators i have been getting (dodge/cummins application) are fully welded aluminum.

 

[ROCK HARVEY]

My truck came with an all-aluminum champion 3 core in it when I bought it. No issues at all, and when it’s time for a replacement I’ll buy the same one again.

Actually if it springs a leak that might be a great excuse to buy a tig welder!

 

[BeastMaster]

Are you leaking or plugged?

If just plugged, might try some industrial formic acid based descaler like CLR-PRO.

Standard CLR is based on Hydrochloric acid. I would stay clear of that.

There are several descaling chemistries out there ranging from vinegar ( acetic acid ), citric acid, oxalic acid, glycolic acid, and each has its pros and cons.

It appears to me, for my old copper-brass construction, formic acid. I am looking for soluble salts of the metals but not as aggressive as to damage seals.

Incidentally, how long should a copper/brass radiator last ( light usage )? I appear to be limited by time-to-corrode enough to block off the tubes.

 

[03wr250f]

@FrozenMerc is spot on
older copper/brass radiators are more efficient at shedding heat due to the material construction. However due to the age and hear cycling they are prone to leaking. They also have 1/2" fin spacing.

Modern aluminum radiators typically use 3/8" or smaller fin spacing allowing more fins per inch than a copper brass radiator. This allows the aluminum to shed heat as well, if not better than copper radiators, while being cheaper, and more easily reparable.

As others have said aluminum doesnt like vibration, and can spring leaks over time, often times they can be repaired, and if not they still are typically 1/3 the pricer of a copper rad.

In short, buy a cheap aluminum radiator, 2, 3, or 4 core it doesnt matter, drop it in and go.

Also as someone who has ran a 3&4 core champion back to back, i noticed no difference in cooling abilities

 

[Dirtleg]

I just recently noticed a slight sweet smell after driving my truck. I have a very minor leak at the bottom right of the radiator.

It is the 33 year old original. Still cools just fine and I lose maybe a quart of coolant every 300 miles currently. I am going to pull it out and inspect the leak. If I can solder it great. If not I am willing to pay for a proper re-core to be done.