Need Help engine wont start after trying lots of things .

[Carl bane]

Welcome to the forum. My thoughts are the gear timing between the injection pump gear and the cam gear are wrong. some shade tree mechanics remove the pump, housing and injection pump gear as one piece. then you loose the gear timing. Checking is simple. Look at the damper timing tab. See the 2 tubes there. the short fat one is the top dead center number one cylinder. Not the tall skinny tube. Roll the engine around till the damper line is right in the middle of the fat tube. If the engine is as clean as you say then the line thru the tab with the zero on it will be seen. Now remove the diamond shaped cover with the 2 bolts on the front of the injection pump gear cover or the housing. Thats the aluminum housing the injection pump bolts to. The bolts there are 1/2 inch hex heads. When that cover is off look at the gear. If the gear timing is correct you will see the drive pin in the 4 o clock position and the 3 bolts that holds the gear to the injection pump easily. One bolt must be directly straight down for the gear timing to be correct. If the drive pin is at the 11 o clock position you are 180 degrees away from top dead center number one. Thats an easy mistake some make. The cam gear and the injection pump gear tuen once to 2 turns of the crank gear. Those big gears are twice as big as the crank gear. Every engine have a cam gear that is twice as large as the crank gear. Otherwise the timing would never be correct each crank revolution. If you look at my pics all this talk may be clear. If not please ask. You have done plenty so far and its really helped me attempt to tell you what I feel is wrong.

The guy I got it from says he didn't pull it but that don't mean the other guy before him didn't . I will check it Thursday afternoon and see where I am at with it . I was told to check the compression stroke for TDC that I could bring it around pull drivers side valve cover and all the valves would be closed but the 6th one back this would make sure I am on the compression stroke on # 1 when I bring it to zero . also said I could pull the # 1 glow plug do you agree with this way of doing it to make sure its on right stroke . Hope I made sense .

 

[Carl bane]

pull the front cover off the IP gear housing.
crank the engine to where the ballancer mark is on zero, which is the first hole in the timing tab on your left while youre looking at it.

i couldnt label the lines, but
the top line, is the dowel that the IP attaches to

the middle line is the mark on the ballancer.

the bottom line is the 0 mark @ TDC

this pump was 2 teeth off as pictured.
it still ran, but was 18 degrees retarded.

just make sure its close and not 90 degrees out

You must be registered for see images attach

How far out do you think it would have to be to not fire at all ?

 

[IDIoit]

ive never tried NOT getting it to fire, lol
just something to check.

 

[Carl bane]

ive never tried NOT getting it to fire, lol
just something to check.

Thanks for your help .I am leaning towards timing also . I have been able to get all of my IDI engines to run even if rough . This one has thrown me for a loop . But with you guys help we figure it out . I was just wondering how far out it would have to be to not run at all . I will update you on what I find .

 

[icanfixall]

Well removing the number one glow plug is a helpful tip too. But knowing where number one cylinder is can be difficult for some. Every cylinder number has the number cast into the intake manifold port almost at the head. Once again if the engine is as clean as you posted it will be easy to see. When the number on cylinder is at top dead center firing order you will have a huge rush of compression out of the glow plug hole too. You might want to be careful bout that too. Bits of trash may be blown around. Don't place a finger over the hole. Thats about 450 lbs of compression blowing out the hole too. If you look again at my pics and enlarge them by clicking on them you can actually see the timing marks. The cam gear has both a DOT and a "Y" mark. The DOT matches with the crank gear and the "Y" matches with the injection pump gear. My bet is your gears are 180 degrees wrong. Might mean the person that removed the pump and gear did not know about the 2 completely different marks. We had a member repairing a truck engine that was just this. 180 degrees out of time. It ran but very badly. He was fixing what someone else messed up. As for removing a valve cover on the drivers side. I say nope. All the cylinders on that side of the engine are numbered from the radiator back to the firewall 2,4,6,8. On the drivers side same direction its 1,3,5,7. Also note the actual firing order is cast into the passenger side of the intake manifold near the air inlet. So for now lets not remove a valve cover. I feel I have helped explain how to easily find top dead center with removing the least amount of parts. If you remove the front diamond cover and find the same pic as I have posted when you are at top dead center number one well then we can move on to other ideas and not have lots of things removed and messy all over the place. Just a glow plug and a small cover is easy to reinstall. A valve cover can be a real mess if not done correctly. Anyway its the passenger side valve cover you will want to remove IF.. you want to see the valve action proving your also on number one top dead center compression and firing point. That valve cover can be difficult to remove if you have air conditioning. That firewall box in hard to work around,

 

[franklin2]

Can we all stop and think about it a little bit? There are a lot of suggestions here. But what would be the main priority for him to start with? The reason I ask, if the timing was off on the injection pump, would it still not run with ether? Why does it not try to run with ether? It doesn't need the glowplugs to run with ether also. It doesn't need any fuel at all to try and start with ether.

Just trying to narrow this down to the most direct approach to the problem.

 

[Carl bane]

Can we all stop and think about it a little bit? There are a lot of suggestions here. But what would be the main priority for him to start with? The reason I ask, if the timing was off on the injection pump, would it still not run with ether? Why does it not try to run with ether? It doesn't need the glowplugs to run with ether also. It doesn't need any fuel at all to try and start with ether.

Just trying to narrow this down to the most direct approach to the problem.

I would of thought it would of hit kicked back or something off of ether . I also tried gas nothing . Is there any way that a engine with 4,000 miles lose enough compression not to fire? I went out and got the compression gauge yesterday from harbor Freight 004800 I think was part number for it with the adaptor for the glow plug. I work out of town so I can only work on it while I am in which will be as soon as I get home Thursday afternoon . Would old fuel in the engine cause it ? I have never seen one that would not hit on ether . that's why I joined her lots oh knowledge here on this site.

 

[riotwarrior]

Search Timing in advanced search and choose thread titles....TONS AND TONS...

This here one may be of help to you...

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/sh...TIMING-LIGHTS-Tech-101&highlight=timing+marks

Good luck, so between Icanfixall's image of the timing gear alignment with covers off, which allows you to see the IP bolt and Dowel alignment, you can use the thread I posted for TDC and if you remove the LEMON shaped cover below oil filler you should see the 3 bolts and dowel location if aligned correctly.

Good luck.

 

[franklin2]

I would of thought it would of hit kicked back or something off of ether . I also tried gas nothing . Is there any way that a engine with 4,000 miles lose enough compression not to fire? I went out and got the compression gauge yesterday from harbor Freight 004800 I think was part number for it with the adaptor for the glow plug. I work out of town so I can only work on it while I am in which will be as soon as I get home Thursday afternoon . Would old fuel in the engine cause it ? I have never seen one that would not hit on ether . that's why I joined her lots oh knowledge here on this site.

Haven't heard any opinions to the contrary so far, I think the compression test may tell you something. If you have a valvetrain problem(valves stuck open, not sealing, or opening and closing at the wrong time) that will affect compression, along with rings and cylinder sealing. If the engine has good compression, I don't see why it would not run with ether. You never know, someone may have tried pouring something down in the engine and hydrolocked it, possibly bending some of the connecting rods. Pouring gasoline down in a diesel engine is not a good idea. I have heard of people soaking a rag with gasoline and holding it over the intake screen.

 

[OLDBULL8]

I would bet it's way out of time.
First guy ran it for 4000 miles, then decided it needed a IP, installed another IP, removed gear, couldn't get it to start, sold it to 2nd guy saying it needed an IP, 2nd guy changed IP, will never start because 1st guy removed the timing gear. My .02 cents worth.

First thing to do is check the timing gear for proper location.

If that's OK, then check compression on all cylinders.
Low compression, then it could have bent rods from all the ether that was used. We'll never know what the 2nd guy did.
He said fuel gushed out of one cyl., that much fuel should have made it hydrolock. ??? Bent rod???

 

[FarmerFrank]

Can we all stop and think about it a little bit? There are a lot of suggestions here. But what would be the main priority for him to start with? The reason I ask, if the timing was off on the injection pump, would it still not run with ether? Why does it not try to run with ether? It doesn't need the glowplugs to run with ether also. It doesn't need any fuel at all to try and start with ether.

Just trying to narrow this down to the most direct approach to the problem.

I've had these IDI's that wouldn't try to start with either too. Idk what it is about them but if they are getting no fuel or fuel at they way wrong time they will not start on just either.

Then there's my old tractors that's I've ran the engine on straight either. These things just get stubborn.

 

[TahoeTom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ELxfImQ3bo

Here is an old school way to start a diesel.

 

[Spun4Fun]

^^^ good Video .. We done the same thing on a CAt660 mariene We used (propane torch ) . If you have the right compression & Timing you can start any diesel and run it on a french fries Oil if you want

 

[Can30Diesel]

I'd start by confirming the timing is right as per the posts and pics above. If it is I call dead IP, just because fuel is getting to the injectors doesn't mean the IP is good.

If you have several of these trucks, it might be an idea to swap in a known good IP from one of them (make sure you mark where it is on the donor motor first) once you have made sure the timing is set up so far as the IP gear is concerned. Lining up the factory timing marks should get you close enough to start it and let it run. Then you will know for sure.

 

[Carl bane]

Ok Guys here is where I am . I went and bought a compression gauge . Pulled all the glow plugs spun the engine over there was a little old fuel on one hole . I turned it over to make sure that everything is clear. Now remember I said this engine had been sitting for 4 years . I ran a compression check on each hole . I come up with 200 . This is way low I understand that but the engine only has 4,000 miles on it . Anything I can do to try to get compression numbers back up or your thought on why it would be so low . I have ruled out stuck valves and so on . Any ideas on why it would be so low on all holes? Advice on how to get compression back up without pulling engine ? I find it hard to believe that this engine needs a rebuild . Im open to your suggestions and thoughts .