injection pump removal - so confused!

[fuzzydog]

I'm not a stupid person but geez I'm having a hard time understanding what I am supposed to and not supposed to remove. I am doing my head gaskets and am down to the IP. I have searched and read and a lot of it seems contradictory or incomplete. One thing is for sure and comes through loud and clear - DO NOT REMOVE THE PUMP GEAR COVER, but I want to make sure I am calling parts by the proper name. Here is a couple pics of where I am:

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If I understand correctly the rounded piece at the front (with the label on it) is the timing gear cover and this is the one that I do not want to remove from the engine to preserve my timing?

I remove the little round panel on the timing gear cover and then remove the 3 bolts inside. These 3 bolts connect the timing gear to the pump. Then there are 3 nuts on the pump side of the cover that after removing them I can take the whole pump off the engine, complete with injector lines (removed at the injectors)
Do I need to mark anything to preserve timing - like where the pump is connected to the timing gear?

and then I see this video which makes a whole lot of sense to me but goes against everything I read!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zQ5UV-En_E

Thanks for any help

 

[flareside_thun]

The guy in the video did it dead wrong.....keep the timing gear and cover in place on the engine. Like you said above on what you think you're supposed to do...that is correct, not what this guy is showing you.

This: "If I understand correctly the rounded piece at the front (with the label on it) is the timing gear cover and this is the one that I do not want to remove from the engine to preserve my timing?

I remove the little round panel on the timing gear cover and then remove the 3 bolts inside. These 3 bolts connect the timing gear to the pump. Then there are 3 nuts on the pump side of the cover that after removing them I can take the whole pump off the engine, complete with injector lines (removed at the injectors)" is correct...that video is bad.....no bueno.

 

[fuzzydog]

All right, it is done. Once I took wrench in hand and got in there it did become quite obvious what needed to be done.

I do understand that they guy in the video did it totally contrary to the collective thought on this and other forums, but still not clear on why it wouldn't work. By leaving the timing gear cover on we are making sure the timing gear meshes back with the (camshaft?) in exactly the same way as before we started messing with it.
By marking the gear and cover, the guy in the video is doing exactly the same, isn't he?

And flareside thun, thanks for the confirmation of the way I was doing it.

 

[johneich]

Sir Fuzzydog, you may find these threads enlightening

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45690

http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45683

A newbie, that followed the Youtube video started these threads, I am sure he would like to remain anonymous, but I am also sure that if one person is prevented from going through what he did he would like this information out there.

 

[gatorman21218]

All right, it is done. Once I took wrench in hand and got in there it did become quite obvious what needed to be done.

I do understand that they guy in the video did it totally contrary to the collective thought on this and other forums, but still not clear on why it wouldn't work. By leaving the timing gear cover on we are making sure the timing gear meshes back with the (camshaft?) in exactly the same way as before we started messing with it.
By marking the gear and cover, the guy in the video is doing exactly the same, isn't he?

And flareside thun, thanks for the confirmation of the way I was doing it.

The way that we recommend to remove the pump leaves the gears in place so that there is zero chance of loosing static timing. The way the video does it may work, BUT there is a chance of misaligning the gears. Its easy enough just to remove the pump from the gear.

 

[fuzzydog]

Thanks guys - I sure am glad I went with my intuition in trusting your wisdom over the youtube video.

I've been working on it all day and I have the intake manifold removed and all the exhaust manifold bolts removed except for the rearmost one on the driver side. Not sure how I'm going to get that one, other than removing the fender liner. I'm pretty pleased - most parts came off without much issue at all.

And here is a good laugh- underneath the intake manifold, on the valley pan I found a nice little pile of dog food. yes, dog food. We don't feed our dog outside so I suspect that sometime when we were camping we left the dog food out at night and some rodent made a little stash on the engine.

 

[gatorman21218]

So what is your project? I'm assuming its more than just an IP change.

 

[fuzzydog]

I have a bad head gasket. it is blowing exhaust pressure into the coolant system. The truck is a summer toy hauler so I am not in a hurry but it was a nice day today. It is an F250 and I am also putting in a D60 so the first thing I did was take the D50 out and then lower it to the ground on the springs. Gives me much better access for doing the head gaskets. When the engine is done, I'll lift her back up, put the d60 under and away we go!

 

[Agnem]

One other comment with regard to what has already been said about not removing the gear cover. Besides the obvious of not getting the gear back just right, you also introduce the possibility of an OIL LEAK and TACH PROBLEMS. Think about it. Why have 3 things that can go wrong involved in your project? For more ancient wisdom on what your working on, be sure to check out my headgasket replacement article on the old TDS site.
http://www.thedieselstop.com/contents/getitems.php3?6.9L Gasket and Turbo Install

 

[icanfixall]

Well... I'm sure glad you came here first and saved yourself plenty of work... Removeing than injection pump gear cover is truely the wrong way to get off the injection pump.. Now for the timing issues... Your terminalogy isn't exactlly right... You said the timing will be the same by doing the cover removel or just the pump removel... Nope... Removing the timing gear cover you loose the "gear timing" between the cam gear and the injection pump gear. You will also have to move the injection pump when its all back together for proper advance timing to the engine. Now if you had removed the aluminum timing gear cover and... You had done all the markings you still really have no idea it went back together correctly gear timed. Thats because you can't see the timing marks on the cam or injection pump gear. I know it looks easy to just remove the 4 bolts holding the gear cover to the engine block for an injection pump changeout but it really isn't. U tube has 2 videos showing this way of pump removel and they are both wrong. We have many... Many years of experiance here. Most of the members here have done all the most diffucult jobs on thes trucks before so when we as a collective say something... Its usually the best... The least costly and the easiest way to do something. I enjoy reading what others are posting here. As long as I am here I continue to learn from others and pass it along. No Ford dealership in the country will treat you the way this site will. We have the understanding and compassion to make these thrucks the best thay can be. We understand why members ask questions... There are no dumb questions... Just dumb mistakes from lack of knowledge about whats being worked on. We fix things for free... Can anyone get a dealership to do that....

 

[fuzzydog]

Can you clarify this for me just a bit more

I did remove my pump the accepted way on this forum - the gear cover is still on the engine.
When I reassemble, is it going to be timed exactly the same way as before I removed the pump?
icanfixall sez "You will also have to move the injection pump when its all back together for proper advance timing to the engine." Does that refer to this forum's way of doing it, or the youtube video way of doing it?

I'm also wondering about that timing gear in there. I guess that once I get the heads off I shouldn't turn the crank to check each individual cylinder wall as the timing gear would then move around without being secured?

 

[gatorman21218]

I dont know about your second question as I have never had the heads off, but if that IP housing is bolted down, you can crank all you want and the gears wont change.

What icanfixall is referring to is the "fine tuning" of the IP. Basically you can loosen the 3 nuts on the IP and rotate the whole pump to change the timing a few degrees. The only way to get the same timing is to make a mark with a cold chisel across the IP and the flange, and that mark will only matter if you reuse the same pump. If you send that pump off to get rebuilt, the timing will change.

When you get it all back together you will probably need to get the timing set properly with a meter.

 

[Diesel JD]

Jim is right. The gear timing is most critical and by leaving that gear cover in place you won't jump basic timing, if you line up the timing marks you should be pretty close to being "in the range" for injection timing too. Injection timing should be set with a luminosity meter or pulse meter. If you can't get access to one, the next best thing is to line up the marks and work from there in increments of about a dime's thickness with the engine off as you adjust the timing until you have no white smoke at idle and no bad scary noises either. White smoke usually means too far retarded and a very harsh clatter is too far advanced. The best ears are usually in the range, but only +-2 degrees. That is from years and years of IDI experience in knowing what they should sound and behave like. I don't know how to advise you about getting that last exhaust manifold bolt out except to say that it IS possible but it certainly is a real pain to get in and out. I think I spent more time on that one bolt on installation and removal than anything else when taking those manifolds off and putting them on. I pulled the heads and manifolds as one piece, but I detached them for installation after destroying a set of head gaskets with them attached. The most critical things for you to remember with your head gasket job is to loosen those head bolts in the reverse torque sequence, no more than a quarter turn at a time until all the pressure is off of them and you can unthread them easily. The second is to make sure to get the mating surfaces absolutely clean as emphasised in Mel's article. One more thing....make sure to not drop your tap in the water jacket holes, they look just like bolt holes but if you put your tap here and it doesn't have a T-handle it will become part of the truck's cooling system. I left one in there, and it seems ok after 7 years and 64,000 miles.

 

[icanfixall]

Your on the right track about not turning the engine over when the pump is off the gear... You really can't make it jump a tooth but why take a chance it will contact the housing or the tach sender... I'm sure you will want to turn the engine thru whiles cleaning things up... Just reinstall the pump as a temp fix so its connected to the gear. No bolts will be needed for this temp thing. Just remove the lines and cover up the open pump ports. Then when your done reconnect the lines to the pump whiles its still on the engine... Makes holding it from turning so much easier. You can seperate the lines and install them one at a time but remember to install the line clamps. Otherwise you will be breaking lines because of the fuel pluse vibrations... I have broken a line and so have several others thinking we knew better and left off the clamps.... Big costly mistake many years ago... Also you will want to make sure the number one cylinder is at top dead center plus half the didtance to the 12 oclock position at the pointer. This allows all the pistons to be below the top of the cylinders. Cranking down the rockers can cause valves to hit a piston. If you want to do this timing the eay way just look at all the pistons and crank the engine till all the pistons are slightly down in the cylinders. Remember that all the pistons come up out of the cylinders as much as 31 thousands.

 

[Diesel JD]

I want to emphasize what Gary said...I ignored the wisdom of the collective here about the hard fuel line insulators, if you can, don't remove them to begin with but the truth is you MUST have something to keep them from vibrating against each other or they will eventually crack. It'll probably be at a bad time too. I was lucky I only lost one. I later replaced the whole set, but it did leave me at an inconvenient place on a bad day. It would have been so much better if I had just been able to jump in the truck and drive home.