IDI "What if..." Durability and build question

[freebird01]

Educate me more on how the 3208 pump advance works....any pics or breakdowns of the pump? Ive been curious on what it would take to put one on our engines

 

[justinray]

I don't have a picture of it. But if you ever see it, its a gear in front of the cam gear that advances per rpm wih a system of springs and shims. Then that gear meshes to the IP gear. They make different setups for different applications, some have no advance mechanism at all, then others advance dicferent amounts through the rpm range.

 

[88 Ford]

Here are a few pictures of some inline pump setups on some 7.3 Powerstrokes. They look pretty cool. The picture with the red manifold is a sled pulling truck called Destroked. I don't know the name of the other one. It didn't say when I found it.

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I like the V pump on this truck. This truck is called Double Overtime. It makes a lot of power as well. The intake manifold is similar to the stock 7.3 PSD manifold but are slightly modded and come into a Y pipe.

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Also Stroked Out and Double Overtime were featured in Diesel Power. Here are the articles.

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ford/0812dp_ford_f250/viewall.html

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ford/0802dp_2005_ford_f350/viewall.html

And the two injection pump idea has been brought up a few time so I figured I would post this Cummins with two P-pumps. The P-pumps are even timed differently up top as well which is pretty crazy and the second one doesn't add fuel until around 3000rpm. Anyway here is that article as well.

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/dodge/1206dp_twin_p_pump_cummins_race_engine/

I don't really think two IPs are feasible on a daily driver but that is a cool pulling truck none the less. The most feasible possibility is using an inline pump or the V style pump. They can provide enough fuel and would be relatively easy to adapt.

 

[88 Ford]

Problem with inline pumps; it's like putting an engine on top of your engine. They're huge.

The Cat 3208 is a hassle because the timing advance is taken care of in the gear instead of in the pump. So you would have to find a way to advance the timing some other way, or somehow adapt the Cat gear.

The Mack E9 pump would likely be tooooooo much. Pumps do have a minimum possible output and this may still be too much for our idi's. even given their relatively large size (7.3 vs 5.9 vs 6.6) they don't hold candle light to an E9.

Timing the V style pump or even the inline pump would be somewhat like timing a Cummins. Cummins have no advance on them and it works for them. I also know that the Mack E9 is powerful but there are quite a few of those engines with around 400hp and some around even 550hp. Those could work IMO.

 

[justinray]

Timing the V style pump or even the inline pump would be somewhat like timing a Cummins. Cummins have no advance on them and it works for them. I also know that the Mack E9 is powerful but there are quite a few of those engines with around 400hp and some around even 550hp. Those could work IMO.

From what I know, the cummins doesn't need an advance with rpm because the boost counteracts it, (you need advance to counteract having less time for the fuel to burn, but you retard the timing with boost because the flame moves quicker over a denser area). Which is why a Cummins with no turbo is more of a pig than a 5 horse Briggs and Stratton.

Also, to clarify the Mack E9 theory of mine, the power curve is different, as is the redline, 500 horsepower is a different animal when produced by an engine more than twice the size. Also think about wet stacking the cylinders because you can only turn the pump down so much.

 

[riotwarrior]

Wow riotwarrior, that's the best breakdown and explanation an engine I have ever seen! Thank you.

Based on that, its pretty clear to me that of I can build a 600hp IDI, it will still be a very reliable engine.
Its pretty clear that this engine has not been asked by many to live up to its potential.

So I guess its time to get serious about this fuel system idea of mine!

Based on what I have learned, amd my theories, I'm thinking 500whp is very doable just on the fuel, and an additional 100-200 with a chemical power adder.

TY for compliment!

You really have to look inside and have a gander not pictures go see one inside to fully grasp how freakin well that bottom end is! BBC has NOTHING on them NOTHING! nor any other HO gasser engine...just an elephant or a side oiler they are about all that come close! The only thing that would be a concern IMHO would be well really nothing. I just cannot see a need for much improvement. Studs for mains sure, I'd do that but those caps are super beefy as is, it's just studs are a better material and hold better than bolts IMO.

If I had money to burn I'd get a girdle just cause I could but no reason other than that.

Of course you would balance and blueprint the engine, but that goes without saying.

Proper HO rebuild procedures are in order of course, removing casting flash, and deburring block, bottoming tap run in every single bolt hole for everything. Chamfer holes not counter bored so less chance of threads being pulled.

Make sure of cam choice, there are several for certain! Doesnt get much better than a hyd roller cam.

If serious spend the money and get some Roller Rockers made, that would help keep guides in the heads as well.

I don't know what all your familiar with and I'm not here to teach you new tricks, it's just obvious to me one has to look inside and see whats there to grasp the capability. Measure the overlap of throws from main to rod etc make sure that there is enough material to keep the crank together in HO situation, I'd say there is but this is me from my past exp.

Don't grind the crank what ever you do it's hardened, and has a nice radius already...bitchen strong!

Port your heads, and POLISH the ***** outta them, they only flow air so shiny is good no fuel to drop out like a carbed engine!

Good luck and keep us informed.

 

[88 Ford]

From what I know, the cummins doesn't need an advance with rpm because the boost counteracts it, (you need advance to counteract having less time for the fuel to burn, but you retard the timing with boost because the flame moves quicker over a denser area). Which is why a Cummins with no turbo is more of a pig than a 5 horse Briggs and Stratton.

Also, to clarify the Mack E9 theory of mine, the power curve is different, as is the redline, 500 horsepower is a different animal when produced by an engine more than twice the size. Also think about wet stacking the cylinders because you can only turn the pump down so much.

I don't have a Cummins but my understanding as far as timing goes is that most will time the engine for a happy medium between smoke at idle and high rpm power. Some do time it for low end torque and some for top end power as well. It just all depends what people want from their engine and where they want their power at. Again I am no expert but this is how I have always understood it. Also you are right about boost helping with the offset of the smoke. There is no doubt about that. We would also have that benefit as well. It wouldl just take some tuning of the setup.

And as far as the Mack E9 pump goes, it will definitely need recalibrated for an IDI and also the governor set a bit higher as well. From what I have read about those IPs is that it is actually quite easy to mod the governors by switching the springs out. I do think you might be right about the Cat fuel levels working better for us though. Plus the Cat pumps are more abundant anyway.

 

[jaluhn83]

Inline pumps use a separate advance system system that rotates the injection pump camshaft relative to the drive gear. The rotary pumps (DB2 type) use hydraulic pressure from the fuel to rotate the cam ring relative to the body of the pump - can't really do that with an inline pump. This does make an inline pump easier to customize the timing advance on.

Rather than trying the find a 8 cylinder inline pump, it probably wouldn't be too awful difficult to make a custom housing and camshaft to use the hydraulic heads off 2 4 cylinder inline pumps mounted on a common case. The machine work would have to be pretty precise, but should be within the capabilities of a good machinist. You'd obviously need custom injection lines. Might even be able to use the stock pump mount/gear if you designed it right.

At least on the inline pump I've worked on (Simms tractor pump), the hydraulic head/rack assembly is one piece and removable from the lower case which just serves to support and locate the cam/followers.

 

[88 Ford]

More than likely a custom pump like that would need to be machined from billet aluminum. IMO that would get more expensive than some of the inline pumps that I have seen for sale. That is somewhat similar to what Scheid Diesel does for their V pumps. They look like the Cat pumps but are billet and have really high fuel capabilities. This all comes at a hefty price of $4700 dollars though. I have seen Cat 3208 pumps pretty cheap and have even seen rebuilt ones at Oregon Fuel Injection. They are like $1300 there but would need calibrated and governed to work on an IDI. Still an option though I guess.

 

[jaluhn83]

I don't think it would since the machined portion would just be the crankcase. Might be easiest to do it that way though. All of the really high precision stuff is in the hydraulic head and you'd be using that section in it's entirety from the original pump. Probably need custom cam followers too, and for sure some tuning and adjustment to get everything balanced right. Hardest thing I can think of is figuring out how to synchronize and link both racks without any slop.