How to time an IP that doesn't have the 3/4" nub on the front?

gandalf

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Okay, I had to look it up, search Google. I'm pretty sure the set I pictured is from ROTUNDA. It's a Ford 7.3 Diesel specific set, and rather hard to find, and expensive.
 

Rossroams

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Uhmmmmmm..... this might not be recommended, but I took a massive D shape clamp and fit it around the side of the pump and upper radiator hose origin. After loosing the IP bolts I could turn the IP in small increments...
 

Thewespaul

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best thing you can do is loosen all the injection lines and turn it by hand, that way you arent stressing the housing. This is the "correct" way but being that youre workin on a van, not the easiest way.
 

genscripter

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best thing you can do is loosen all the injection lines and turn it by hand, that way you arent stressing the housing. This is the "correct" way but being that youre workin on a van, not the easiest way.


That's the truth. Loosening the injector lines would be a few-hour ordeal in a van. Here's my video of me timing it with the turnbuckle method, and that's a big enough of a PITA as is.

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That was back when I had the nub on my IP. I recently swapped my IP out for a backup IP (that didn't have the nub, hence the reason for this thread), and doing the injector lines was pretty horrible.

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Macrobb

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What's wrong with using the two bolts for the high idle? A simple bar with two holes in it(maby 3, one at the other emd for the turn buckle) and you've got a perfect, solid lever for rotating it.
 

genscripter

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What's wrong with using the two bolts for the high idle? A simple bar with two holes in it(maby 3, one at the other emd for the turn buckle) and you've got a perfect, solid lever for rotating it.

Probably would be ok. I wouldn't do it because I'd be worried about overstressing the threads on those holes. They are not big bolts.

I contacted the guy who makes those extendable IP turning wrenches, and he was going to measure their length so I could see if they would fit in the van engine bay. If it does, I'll buy one from him.
 

Macrobb

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Probably would be ok. I wouldn't do it because I'd be worried about overstressing the threads on those holes. They are not big bolts.
.
I made a 12" bar and never had any issues. The reason being is you tighten the bolts down, so you are using the bolts to clamp the bar flat to the IP; the only stress on the bolts is straight in and out(like a lug nut - a loose lug nut will break easily; a tight one won't).
Here are some useful numbers:
1. These bolts are 1/4-20 bolts, going into aluminum, lets
assume 1/4" deep(I think it's longer than that, but...)
2. For a steel socket head cap screw going into aluminum, 1/4 dia, 1/4 depth, use chart E506 at http://viewmold.com/Products/Techni...ation/STRIPPING STRENGTH OF TAPPED HOLES.html
3. This gives a strength of 160,000lbs/sq-in.
A 1/4-20 bolt has a minor diameter of .187, so plugging that int0 pi-r-squared, we get .0275 sq/in.
4. This gives a clamping load of 4400lbs for a socket head cap screw going 1/4" deep into aluminum. Derate that by 72%, worst case, using a grade 2 bolt... that's still 1250lbs of force there.
5. If the two bolts are 1" apart(I think they are slightly further) and you are levering at 12" away from that bolt(12" lever), you have a mechanical advantage of 12, so ~100lbs of force at the end of said 12" lever.

I Think those bolts are strong enough. ;)
If you are really putting anywhere close to 100lbs on a lever to get that pump to move... you are going to break something, or at least stress those lines a lot.
 

genscripter

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Well, that's an interesting topic. I completely understand what you are getting at, and I have a structural degree (specializing in steel and concrete) with my architecture degree, so I get your math.

But in practice, combined with my bad luck, I know I'd strip those threads out in a second. :frustrate Then I get the privilege of pulling my IP again to tap more threads, or trying to tap them with the IP in the van bay, and the number of problems starts to exponentially propagate.

I'm still waiting for that guy to send me the measurement. Once I figure out that, I'll probably buy one of those tools just to be safe. Thanks for the calculations though.
 

icanfixall

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Thanks for the great videos. Clearly you are working in a tight area. Just a note about the hot lines your working around. My guess is you don't know timing can be done on a cold engine. What you need to do is remove the power to the fast idle solenoid and the cold advance on top of the injection pump. Your cold timing is exactly the same as warmed up timing. This is the ONLY way I time my engine or others. I also remove the fast idle solenoid bracket for better working access.
 

genscripter

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Thanks for the great videos. Clearly you are working in a tight area. Just a note about the hot lines your working around. My guess is you don't know timing can be done on a cold engine. What you need to do is remove the power to the fast idle solenoid and the cold advance on top of the injection pump. Your cold timing is exactly the same as warmed up timing. This is the ONLY way I time my engine or others. I also remove the fast idle solenoid bracket for better working access.

Thanks for the info. Back when I made that video (i think 2 years ago), I didn't know about the cold timing. Now I know better. Also, since the time I filmed that video, I figured out a way to get that third IP nut without having to go thru the doghouse. You have to disjoint your elbow, but doable.

But when I time my engine nowadays, I'm usually doing it for MPG reasons. The only way I can do this effectively is by driving long distances and measuring my fuel level. Then I adjust the timing a degree and keep driving. That means I have to work in a hot engine bay regardless. I've gotten pretty used to getting my arms and hands burned at this point.
 

genscripter

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Well, today I finally got a few moments to fiddle with the timing. Sheesh, without that 3/4" wrench boss, this is IMPOSSIBLE in a van.

I tried the rubber filter wrench. Nope. First, it wouldn't fit in the engine bay (handle hit the ceiling) if I could figure out a way to wrap the strap through the underside of the IP.

I tried a vice grip connected to one of the outer screw bosses for the VRV or the throttle linkage (both sides), but it wouldn't stay connected long enough for me to make a decent moment arm.

I tried finding any other square portion of the IP to put a difference sized open-ended wrench, but everything is either tapered or filleted, so that was a bust.

I now seriously doubt that the rotunda-style wrench would work either, because the engine ceiling is only about 6 inches from the top of the IP.

My last option would be Macrobb's idea. I could cut something about 6 or 7 inches long out of plate steel and drill some holes. IDK. With that much work, I might as well pull all my hypermax air filter stuff, and then loosen up the top 6 injector lines and turn it then. ugh.
 

genscripter

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On a different note, I have a question. I remember a while back watching a youtube video (I'm 99% sure it was @Macrobb ), where he adjusted the IP timing without turning the IP itself. There was a screw or something that he turned.

I'm do not want to use that to time my IP. I want to time my IP using the turning method. The reason why I bring this up is, I recently installed this substitute IP in place of my original IP (which was temperamental). My original IP was timed to something like 9-10 deg BTDC at the stock hash indentation on the gear housing. But my substitute IP was oriented the exact same hash, but its timing at 2 deg BTDC. I know my substitute IP is really old and I'm only using it until my original IP is rebuilt or replaced, but that seems like the internal timing is off or something. I thought of that video from a while ago and figured I'd ask about it here, because I can't find that IP timing adjustment video now.

Has anyone adjusted their IP this way to calibrate it similar to a previous IP?
 
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