Hey Bart! (Smoke on startup.)

Selahdoor

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Smoking mainly when cold is often injectors or from a long cranking to get the fuel system re-primed.

What other cause could there be?

Here's my experience...

It was obvious I needed to replace my injectors. Uneven running was one symptom. Hard lope from the injectors unevenly applying. And it was getting worse. To the point where it almost seemed like some cylinders were battling each other.

But... No smoke. Not even at startup. None on hard acceleration. Etc. I had plenty of smoke when I first got it, but had eliminated the problem by adjusting the IP timing.

~~~

So... I replaced the injectors with some from one of the approved vendors here.

No more lope. (Except on a cold morning, when I have to use the GPs for a longer time. I am assuming that means I need to replace the GPs, because some must not be working.)

But, now I have tons of smoke at startup.

No long cranking times. It starts up pretty quickly.

I have adjusted the timing, in both directions. Result in both directions was worse smoke, and bad running. So my timing is now set back at what is obviously the best for this engine. (No idea what that is, because I don't have any of the timing equipment.)

Smokes only at startup, and up until it is well warmed up. After that, no smoke at all. Not even on hard acceleration. Acceleration is smoother and stronger with the new injectors. Better throttle response. Better hill climbs. It just runs better overall, with the new injectors.

Still... That is a LOT of smoke at startup. The entire neighborhood gets a blanket of white smoke...

I trust these injectors. I trust the vendor. So I am trying to figure out what else could be the cause.

One thing I am considering trying, is unplugging the fast idle at startup. The weather is warm. It's the best time to try such a thing. I suspect it isn't going to make any difference. (Or simply won't stay running on it's own.) But we'll see.
 

Selahdoor

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Yeah, get outta heah you hacker! LOL

Everyone is encouraged to reply!

I titled it that way, because I began it as a quote by Bart. :)
 

Big Bart

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What other cause could there be?

Here's my experience...

It was obvious I needed to replace my injectors. Uneven running was one symptom. Hard lope from the injectors unevenly applying. And it was getting worse. To the point where it almost seemed like some cylinders were battling each other.

But... No smoke. Not even at startup. None on hard acceleration. Etc. I had plenty of smoke when I first got it, but had eliminated the problem by adjusting the IP timing.

~~~

So... I replaced the injectors with some from one of the approved vendors here.

No more lope. (Except on a cold morning, when I have to use the GPs for a longer time. I am assuming that means I need to replace the GPs, because some must not be working.)

But, now I have tons of smoke at startup.

No long cranking times. It starts up pretty quickly.

I have adjusted the timing, in both directions. Result in both directions was worse smoke, and bad running. So my timing is now set back at what is obviously the best for this engine. (No idea what that is, because I don't have any of the timing equipment.)

Smokes only at startup, and up until it is well warmed up. After that, no smoke at all. Not even on hard acceleration. Acceleration is smoother and stronger with the new injectors. Better throttle response. Better hill climbs. It just runs better overall, with the new injectors.

Still... That is a LOT of smoke at startup. The entire neighborhood gets a blanket of white smoke...

I trust these injectors. I trust the vendor. So I am trying to figure out what else could be the cause.

One thing I am considering trying, is unplugging the fast idle at startup. The weather is warm. It's the best time to try such a thing. I suspect it isn't going to make any difference. (Or simply won't stay running on it's own.) But we'll see.
Selahdoor,

Let’s discuss some possibilities.

Problem - Smoke at cold start only.

Questions -

a) Did the smoke start the next day or within a few days of adding new injectors? If not how long?
b) How many seconds does it crank before it fires? With new injectors you may be dumping more diesel till it fires.

1) You could have a bad valve guide seal, oil pools at night and sucks in slowly burns till the motor is up to temp.
2) You could have 2-4 bad glow plugs and a couple of your weaker cylinders are not firing 100% till things warm up. Use a test light on the tip of each injector. Hook the pig tail to positive on the battery. Touch each tip, lights up glow plug is working to some extent. No light glow plug is dead.
3) Your timing advance is -
a) Over advancing because your timing is off already. But to your point why did it not improve when moving the IP?
b) Maybe it was not working prior and after you bumped it or the wiring doing the injectors it is now working. Thus changing the timing at start up. You could disconnect at the IP and start cold to see if anything improves.
4) Your cdr valve is not working or you have a lot of blowby when the motor is cold. You could test blow-by before and after warming up. You could clean and test your CDR valve to insure it is working. Star the engine cold without the cdr valve to confirm it is not your issue.
5) Not as likely but you have a head gasket issue. Warms up, engine or head expands and the problem goes away.
6) But as I say frequently do not assume you get a working part new or rebuilt out of the box. I know we want to think our favorite vendors are 100% every-time, but your symptoms line up with injectors since this was not happening before. Our favorite rebuilders will have a small failure rate too. That is why I asked if this appeared when you replaced them. Maybe the rebuild parts they got were bad out of the box. One issue is they likely only pop test these a couple of times and ship, but they do not run them in a engine to test.(No one does, they would come all sooted up.)

Here is what makes them great to work with. They all have a great track record. They all will work with you to resolve the issue. If within a week of replacing your injectors you got smoke clouds and 6 or more glow plugs are good, and your engine cranks for say less that 10 seconds that would be a big puff of smoke but then clear right up.

So to be fair to the vendor, rule out the glow plugs, IP advance, and the cdr. Then talk with the vendor and have a conversation, I am sure they will help make you a satisfied customer.
 
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Selahdoor

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Thank you. That's pretty much what I was thinking.

I'll eliminate everything the best I can.

But... Yeah, it was fine with the old injectors, and instantly started a TON of smoke only on startup, when the injectors were changed. I still think it is something else. Which was disguised by the old injectors not delivering as they were supposed to...

It is a huge amount of smoke at cold startup. Not so much at warm startup. Then only a small puff.

My honest first assumption may be the best. Valve guide seals.

From the top.

a) The problem started immediately with the change of the injectors.

b) it cranks for maybe 4 seconds on a warm morning. Still requires the GPs, (10 seconds or less.), and holding the throttle to the floor. On a cold morning it takes at least 15 seconds of GP then starts after maybe 7 to 10 seconds of cranking. Again, with the throttle to the floor. In either case, without the throttle to the floor, everything takes 2 to 3 times as long.

1) Exactly what I suspect to be the case. But I am not going to be able to afford to fix that or even check it for a good long while. My house has sucked up all my budget for the foreseeable future. (Even checking it is going to require gaskets and/or RTV that I don't have, at the minimum. And if I have to remove the heads, forget it!....)

2) I have been meaning to check the GPs for quite a while now. I DO suspect there are a couple or a few that either don't work, or are not working up to par. I'll check those first thing.

3) So much to say here. I'll just keep it short at... First thing I am going to do is to disconnect the fast idle and do a cold startup. (That will now have to be tomorrow at the earliest.) If the smoke abates even a bit, that may be on the right track. If so, I'll reconnect, and then turn the timing backward again. This may end up being a compromise between less smoke at startup, and slightly less drivability on the road. We'll see.

4) I removed my CDR. A long time ago. It was this way for at least 2 years before I changed the injectors. Nothing has changed with my setup recently. I don't think blowby has anything to do with it.

5) I hope not. Again, I can't check that out, or even begin to hope to fix it for quite a while.

6) As I said at the beginning. Exactly my thinking. I am not going to bother the vendor until I am absolutely sure. Because I don't think the injectors are the problem. I want to check everything else out, first. Besides, it's already been months since I bought them, and will probably be months before I am sure about the problem.

Thank you for the reply.
 

Big Bart

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My advice is let the vendor know now, as a year later might be pushing your warranty and their generosity. Ask if you can send them in for pop testing?

If this happened immediately after you put in the injectors, you likely have a injector or two leaking. So at least tell them now so they know you are looking at other issues first.

I recommend removing and sending in ASAP to pop test. They can pop test and see if any are leaking/dribbling. My gut says they will fix for free if any are.

Address the glow plugs even if you just do the bad ones. ($10-15 each.) That will tell you a lot.

If the injectors test fine, then perhaps it is coincidental, or perhaps you will find one or two injectors did not seal and have low compression till the truck warms up. You can test by spraying soapy water at the injector where it screws into the engine. It will bubble if the injector did not seal up 100%.
 
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hacked89

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Sure sounds like something to do with the act of changing injectors or injectors themselves, as I tell the guys at work, no such thing as coincidences. Did you check the bores and ensure you didn’t double the copper washers?

Don’t forget you can turn one knob and make a difference on the system but that doesn’t mean that’s the root cause. IE if you have a wonky injector or it’s leaking and you change the timing you are going to see a downstream impact on the “smoke” but that doesn’t mean it was a timing issue.

Valve guide seals - you don’t need to run exhaust seals on an IDI by the book, it will just smoke on cold startup. The plastic seals on the exhaust side become brittle and almost always disappear. I ran one engine no exhaust seals and it barely smoked just faintly on cold start. 3 for 3 engines for me I haven’t seen any damage or issue on the intake seals. You sound like you are getting a lot more smoke than what I’ve experienced running no exhaust seals.
 
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Jesus Freak

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Well, I know I'm not Colombo (Salahdoor), and I'm not Matlock (Big Bart), I don't even drive a "hacked 89", but my ringtone was the "Magnum pi" theme until a couple weeks ago when I changed it to "Simon and Simon" and I did deliver some packages to a Holiday Inn Express on Saturday. So I think it's the glow plugs.....but I'm really just guessing.
 

Joezam

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Sounds like a tired IP to me, mine smoked on startup cold and going down hill, bad IP.
 

Selahdoor

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Ok, mine smokes bad, on cold startup, and is almost always pointed downhill, on cold starts.

That doesn't explain why this problem started immediately with changing the injectors.
 

Old Goat

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JOZAM probably nailed it...IP.

You haven`t mentioned if these Injectors were original to the truck, or the IP.
Have you changed one or the other prior to this?

It is always (from what I have read) to replace both at the same time. Replacing Injectors and having a tired worn pump or one marginally good, will add more pressure for the pump to pop the new Injectors and will not be able to build the pressure.


Goat
 

Selahdoor

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That makes sense!

Still doesn't seem to fit the symptoms, quite right.

It's acrid white smoke. Which makes it unburned fuel. (Too much fuel.) Which doesn't correlate with an IP not providing enough pressure/fuel, on startup.
 

Brian VT

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Have you tried disconnecting individual injectors to see if one of them doesn't affect how the engine runs (indicating that cylinder isn't firing properly)?
 

Selahdoor

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Not yet.

At this point it is mostly conjecture. I am working on my house, and don't have the time to get out there and actually work on the truck yet.

Before I get to work on it, the more I know, the better I'll go about the work when I get to it. Ergo, conjecture first. I'll make up a work/troubleshooting list and have something to follow when I do the work.
 

Big Bart

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Not yet.

At this point it is mostly conjecture. I am working on my house, and don't have the time to get out there and actually work on the truck yet.

Before I get to work on it, the more I know, the better I'll go about the work when I get to it. Ergo, conjecture first. I'll make up a work/troubleshooting list and have something to follow when I do the work.
Add to the work list
- Check the flux capacitor
- Check the ball bearings, as Fletch said, it’s all gone ball bearings these days.
:p
 

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