head gasket,oil cooler O rings, or cavitation?

[Farmer Rock]

Good evening folks! I am buying an F superduty (450) that has oil in the water, and water in the oil. The seller was told that it's a blown head gasket, and never ran it. I am just wondering what is the most likely cause of this? I am hoping it is just head gaskets or the O rings on the oil cooler, but I am prepared for cavitation should that be the problem, since I have a good 6.9 I can swap in. I would appreciate any and all input as to what is the most probable on this, thanks.





Rock

 

[lotzagoodstuff]

In theory, the oil pressure should be higher than the coolant pressure, so an oil cooler oring leak really should put oil in the coolant and not vice versa. In theory, communism makes everybody equal and happy too

You could try to pressurize the coolant system with a regulator and gage and see if you can see or hear where the pressure is going. If there's that much coolant in the oil, the engine may already be toast. But it's always interesting to see if you can confirm the failure mode, and maybe save yourself and engine swap.

Good luck

 

[snicklas]

In theory, the oil pressure should be higher than the coolant pressure, so an oil cooler oring leak really should put oil in the coolant and not vice versa.

Yes, but then when the engine isn't running, the hot cooling system has more pressure than the oil... so it can be pushed both ways at different times..... being in both, I would say Oil Cooler..... Cavitation would only be coolant in the oil..... head gasket could be either..... but most times on an IDI a swap is the cooler...

 

[cozinsky]

I bought my 92 years ago "as is" with oil being pushed into the coolant. The heads had already been removed and there were no signs of any issues with the gaskets and the oil cooler had been replaced for the same reason. It was cavitation, I found a pinhole in one cylinder so I ended up sleeving all eight. There never was any coolant in the oil, just oil in the cooling system. I imagine combustion pressure was forcing it through the hole.

 

[Farmer Rock]

Thank you guys for all the advice and great information. I am getting the truck tonight, so I will order the oil cooler O rings/gaskets then, and update you guys when I get a chance to work on it.



Rock

 

[Farmer Rock]

I ordered the O rings and gaskets last night. Is there any thing special I should do to replace them? From the little bit of searching I did, I have to either remove most of the steering components, or loosen the motor mounts and jack up the engine some. I took some pictures here of how nasty the oil and coolant are.
Rock

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[IDIBRONCO]

I prefer to pick up the engine. Aside form giving you the clearance to R&R your oil cooler, it also helps during the install since the oil and coolant will tend to run away from the holes back into the block. That little bit of tilt is a HUGE help when trying to keep the gaskets clean and in place.

 

[Farmer Rock]

I prefer to pick up the engine. Aside form giving you the clearance to R&R your oil cooler, it also helps during the install since the oil and coolant will tend to run away from the holes back into the block. That little bit of tilt is a HUGE help when trying to keep the gaskets clean and in place.

Thank you for the heads up! It sounds like lifting the engine is best, so that is what I will do.



Rock

 

[Old Goat]

OH you lucky guy....Not.
I went through the oil in the coolant one morning a couple years ago. Got on the form (FTE) and said I thought I blew a Head gasket. 3 guys came back "Oil Cooler".

then I did a bunch of searching and reading, and YT Video`s etc...
Diesel Hub has a how to do it.

https://www.dieselhub.com/maintenance/idi-oil-cooler.html

Even unbolting the power steering pump and moving to the side...how do you access the 4 front bolts? Dang near impossible to see or get to.

I finally jacked up the L/F placed a jack stand, removed the wheel. Then battery, washer bottle and over flow bottle and removed the inner fender. Then you have a straight shot to the bolts.

You will need to unbolt the left engine mount and jack up engine enough to place piece of 2x4 to support it.
Because you have to slide the OC to the rear.

OH, and remove the Oil filter first.
After you get her bolted back up, then the fun of flushing the cooling system of oil.

Here is a thread I did over on FTE.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1567879-blown-head-gasket-oh-goodie.html

Hope this help ya.


Goat

 

[Farmer Rock]

OH you lucky guy....Not.
I went through the oil in the coolant one morning a couple years ago. Got on the form (FTE) and said I thought I blew a Head gasket. 3 guys came back "Oil Cooler".

then I did a bunch of searching and reading, and YT Video`s etc...
Diesel Hub has a how to do it.

https://www.dieselhub.com/maintenance/idi-oil-cooler.html

Even unbolting the power steering pump and moving to the side...how do you access the 4 front bolts? Dang near impossible to see or get to.

I finally jacked up the L/F placed a jack stand, removed the wheel. Then battery, washer bottle and over flow bottle and removed the inner fender. Then you have a straight shot to the bolts.

You will need to unbolt the left engine mount and jack up engine enough to place piece of 2x4 to support it.
Because you have to slide the OC to the rear.

OH, and remove the Oil filter first.
After you get her bolted back up, then the fun of flushing the cooling system of oil.

Here is a thread I did over on FTE.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1567879-blown-head-gasket-oh-goodie.html

Hope this help ya.


Goat

That is very helpful, thank you!
Is it best to remove the cooler whole or separate from the headers? Also, did you have to use rtv/silicone on the gaskets?


Rock

 

[typ4]

If you rtv the cooler gaskets they will be ruined.
clean both surfaces perfectly and high tack them to the block is how I do it, and a little ,and I mean very little , aviation seal on the other side.
If you have a thick black oring for the cooler , it wont last.

There is no oil in head surface to push into the coolant.

 

[Old Goat]

You will have to remove the Oil Cooler whole. remove the 4 bolts on ea end, and slide to the rear.

There is a metal tab welded on the side of the cooler on each end. This is to pry the aluminum header off. the tab will probably bend some. You might also have to use a Dead blow hammer, or maybe a piece of wood and a hammer to tap around the edge to get the ends to pop over the "O" Rings.

Genscripter has good info in his video, he also shows hot to pressure test the Cooler to make sure it is not compromised inside.

There is a gasket kit with the 2 paper gaskets and the 4 "O" Rings.
Parts Geek pizzed me off when they showed the cooler with the gasket/o rings but only the Cooler came. was a generic picture they told me.

Did a bunch of Google searching and found them up in Missoula, MT at Gomers wearhouse... order 4 sets case I screwed up getting it back together.

When I put her back in, had my Wife help me. Told her ya gotta just get one bolt in and finger tight.
I got one in my end and it went right together.
I used some RTV or maybe a permatex gasket stuff just to hold the paper gasket onto the cooler, or maybe onto the block, don`t remember. Just something to keep it lined up.

The paper gasket do have a thin line of some rubbery orange seal.

If anyone thinks removing the front wheel and inner fender etc... is too much extra work. well maybe it is, but I got rid of the factory fiber glass mat/insulation, Was oil soaked and filthy dirty, and then with everything out, you have great access to replacing the 3/8" rubber fuel line that goes to the ( long gone in my case) Fuel/Water seperator.

I later on added a Racor 500FG Fuel/Water seperator in that location. And when I did I had the new hose already in place.

Replacing the OC is a pita job to do, but if mine was original, 30 years is good service.


Goat

 

[gnathv]

When I did mine, I just turned the wheels to the left and got my long extensions to break the front header bolts loose. Didn’t remove wheel or liner.

 

[Farmer Rock]

@Old Goat I ordered the O ring and gasket set from rockauto that had the 4 O rings and 2 gaskets. There was also another kit I saw that had only the gaskets, but they looked completely different than the two in the other set. I ended up ordering that set as well, just because I wanted to make sure I got the right stuff. Although it now sounds like I only needed the first one. I am going to see if I can get my dad to give me a hand with taking it in and out. I really appreciate the great information, it helps me a lot. Thanks



Rock

 

[Old Goat]

I went out to the shop and got the gasket box and "O" Ring bag.
Paper gaskets are Fel-Pro ES 70689
There are 3 gaskets, one is if you have a Van.

The "O" Rings are Mahle GS33545
There is 2 black and 2 turquoise.

Glad to be of help, I learned from others by reading threads and YT videos. And probably made some changes to help me.

When you are first looking at it, it`s over welming, like eating an Elephant. Just take it one bite at a time.
When I was doing it I think it was January, cold, snowy, then couple good days, wind snow etc.... Had my Propane Torpedo heater to stay thawed out.
I had something else to drive so not a big hurry.

Just be safe.


Goat.