Hard Start - Glow Plugs / Air Intrusion Help!

[parkergn]

Hey!

Having a strange hard starting issue on my ‘86 6.9 IDI Van. Currently on road trip and appreciate any help!

Recently did the “return line kit” before my trip. Had some coolant level issues and troubleshooted that, then the same morning, the van took a lot of cranking to start.

3 days later still ALOT of cranking every morning, and with not the usual “starts then stalls and cranking” like we all have had with return line caps leaks.

I by-passed the return line hose to filter hosing today. And will see tomorrow if that helps.

I’m wondering how the injection pump / injectors would lose all fuel and have no start until primed.

I’ll maybe replace the hard-line olives?

Van drives great when started no, rough idle and great power on hills. So gotta be on the return side…. somewhere….

 

[Cubey]

Check the inlet line on the back side of the injection pump (the center one). Feel around for fuel on the underside. There's an olive there. You try snuggling it up if it's leaky. I did it twice on the f250 and it solved it long term (several years) both times. It sat for 3 years and started well with minimal cranking, not long before I sold it.

You might try plugging in the block heater, if the cord isn't rotten, and see if that makes a difference if it's needing a lot of cranking. it could be a glow plug issue, if the block heater helps.

 

[Clb]

Sounds like return lines.
You can literally drop a tissue on them and cause it to drain back without leaking.
Once there in there and clean, never bump em.

Sounds like yours is a new install issue.
Some guys build them entirely off the truck then install them all at once to keep the orings happy.
Look up the zicam tool trick...

 

[Black dawg]

In my experience, drain back that causes extended cranking, and not the starts and then dies, is usually a leak at the injection pump. Look for signs of wetness (may not be any). Some times parking uphill, and then listening with the stethoscope tube at any leak points will find it.

 

[parkergn]

I have a feeling it’s the injection pump as well. I’ll pull my dog house today and look for leaks maybe swap the olives if I can find one in town here in Rocky Mountain Alberta. Cut some fuel hose maybe?

Can air back track up thru the injection pump in to the filter housing?

Van was starting great down to -20C with no block heater last week. Last few days it’s been just below freezing and hard starting. I’ll double check my glow plug resistance and voltage at the cables while I’m in there. Been running a push-button about 8-10 seconds for starts. Some times two cycles. New Powermaster 9050 starter

For the return caps - I did build it off the truck and slide them all on at once. I’ll pop them off and check or redo all the o-rings. Would dielectric grease be good for the o-rings / caps. It’s clean and cheap.

Thoughts on installing an e-pump? I have a Facet Gold-Flo 5-8psi 35gph in my trunk as a backup if my mechanic failed.

 

[parkergn]

tried to start again this morning, and only thing that cranked it over was some starter fluid.

Pulled my doghouse, checked the resistance on my NEW ZD-28 plugs and all of them are reading 40ohms of resistance or no continuity…. How would they all be pouched?

I have 5 spare Bosch I may throw in, and the dealer in town can order me a new set of 8 for $30 each……

Better to avoid Autolites eh?

 

[The_Josh_Bear]

I was going to say: glow plugs, starter/batteries/cables, THEN start looking at the IP. Sounds like you found it at the GP's. I've heard a lot of back and forth about GP's and Ohm testing. Take an incandescent test lamp to them and see if the bulb glows brightly. Or if you don't have one, tap with a jumper wire. It should have quite the spark if they are good.

I have a hard time with all these stories about modern BERU GP's burning up over the last few years. Outside of tinkering, I've had 2 sets of GP's in 20 years. And I have a manual GP relay I hold for 12-15 seconds around freezing. Recently upgraded to the White Rogers Relay, needs about 3 seconds less of glow time than the other one.

On that note, I've hooked up 5 different ZD-9 plugs to a 12v car battery to see how long till they burn out... I got bored after 1 minute and unhooked them.

I'm hoping your ZD-28's are OK, let's pretend they are: you could be having trouble getting juice to them. The power wires(yellow pair in the pickups) running to the GP controller and then to the harness are prone to overheat at connectors and corrode. Could be an issue, though I don't know the van wiring.

AUTOLITES ARE EVIL! Don't do it!

For the return caps - I did build it off the truck and slide them all on at once. I’ll pop them off and check or redo all the o-rings. Would dielectric grease be good for the o-rings / caps. It’s clean and cheap.

Yes on dielectric grease. And don't go light! My favorite is wheel bearing grease since it's always around and can't swell the nitrile o-rings.

Thoughts on installing an e-pump? I have a Facet Gold-Flo 5-8psi 35gph in my trunk as a backup if my mechanic failed.

They are fine as a backup or a pre-start purge pump. But it only works if you have a return for the air to purge out of. Nothing can pump air or fluid through a non-rotating IP. I have my Facet set up this way, it's relay is triggered by the high idle circuit. Then when the engine is warm the Facet turns off with the high idle and isn't working unless I need to wire it for full-time backup use. Just make sure to put check-valves after each pump so the other pump doesn't push through it if it dies.

Can air back track up thru the injection pump in to the filter housing?

Nope.

Fun anecdote:
Another way to start these pigs is gasoline fumes. I found that gasoline in a spray bottle actually works wonders to start these bad boys and is FAR gentler than ether. The problem is that nobody makes a spray bottle than can handle such a harsh solvent. Have to buy a solvent sprayer and they aren't cheap.

 

[parkergn]

I'm hoping your ZD-28's are OK, let's pretend they are: you could be having trouble getting juice to them. The power wires(yellow pair in the pickups) running to the GP controller and then to the harness are prone to overheat at connectors and corrode. Could be an issue, though I don't know the van wiring.

Thanks for the reply!!

Got all my return lines back together… plenty of grease on the caps, new o-rings.

I’ll consider a e-pump to prime if I find it’s still draining air some where. Gonna be -20c next week or two so rather have something that starts for now.

damn is the hard lines a pain in the ass to reconnect, especially if the previous owner cross threaded a connector.

Right I checked the voltage at each spade connector and I’m getting 12.7 at each spade connector with no problems at each one.

Regarding the ohm reading I tested them in the block, and outside the block with no success getting any resistance at all, and don’t even get a current thru the plugs (the beeping sound)

My wiring for the plugs is simple. I unplugs the purple wire on my relay, and added a +12v push button to that same purple wire input on the relay. Glow light works on the dash. Would the relay be malfunctioning with no dash light running the plugs to long?

Gonna put 8 new plugs in today. And keep my old ones to for more testing. Really can’t afford another set to burn out….

 

[The_Josh_Bear]

Thanks for the reply!!

Got all my return lines back together… plenty of grease on the caps, new o-rings.

I’ll consider a e-pump to prime if I find it’s still draining air some where. Gonna be -20c next week or two so rather have something that starts for now.

Good plan!

damn is the hard lines a pain in the ass to reconnect, especially if the previous owner cross threaded a connector.

Oh man, you ain't kidding. Those injectors are some tough steel.

Right I checked the voltage at each spade connector and I’m getting 12.7 at each spade connector with no problems at each one.

That's a good test, though if you're losing current through a bad connection you wouldn't find it that way.

Regarding the ohm reading I tested them in the block, and outside the block with no success getting any resistance at all, and don’t even get a current thru the plugs (the beeping sound)

Well they may be pooched then. I still wish we knew why, there are fakes on the market for sure, which is a possibility.

My wiring for the plugs is simple. I unplugs the purple wire on my relay, and added a +12v push button to that same purple wire input on the relay. Glow light works on the dash. Would the relay be malfunctioning with no dash light running the plugs to long?
Gonna put 8 new plugs in today. And keep my old ones to for more testing. Really can’t afford another set to burn out….

Just a troubleshooting thought: since you have the doghouse access, and you're already swapping them you can certainly plug in the old rear 2 GP's and clamp them to something metal, hit the key and see if they glow. If not, swap the new ones in and repeat. That will tell you right away if it's plugs or something else without quite so much hassle. I suppose it's possible the relay itself is dying/dead.

Happy wrenching! I hope you get this licked and back to enjoying the road trip.

 

[Old Goat]

If you loosen or remove the Hard Line Clamps, it will make it easier to line up the Hard Line to the Injector.
Just make sure you re attach the Hard Line Clamps.

You mentioned about the Hard Line Olives. Lift Pump to Filter and Filter to Injection Pump.

Here is an E-Bay listing for the fittings you will need to delete the metal hard lines.
These are for Push lock Hose, buy it from a Hydraulic shop.
They push on w/o using clamps.
Parker is a good brand of Hose.

Note: Do not use clamps with push on hose.

7.3 IDI Fuel Line Builder Kit | Engine Compartment | Steel | Rust Preventative | Male Threaded | 1 Month Manufacturer Warranty

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 7.3 idi Fuel Line Builder Kit. For Lift Pump To Filter Housing To Injection Pump at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

I have my 86 wired with a manual Toggle Switch.
Hot wire to where the Purple wire was connected on the relay, and through an in line Fuse. other wire to Ground.
My dash light does not come on, long as I push on the Toggle, I hear the relay click and know they are on.....how many are working? IDK. Hopefully all 8.

Note: If you do use the rubber hose, be sure to fill the hose with some type of fuel, so you are not adding air to the system.
I use a meat Syringe and fill it with ATF




Goat

 

[IDIBRONCO]

damn is the hard lines a pain in the ass to reconnect, especially if the previous owner cross threaded a connector.

You sure are right about that one. What I like to do is to hold the nut up above the top of the injector and set the end of the line in place to see if it looks like it's lining up squarely. If not, I'll put the box end of my 5/8" wrench on the nut and SLIGHTLY bend it until it looks like the line lines up squarely. I don't like to remove the line clamps if I can help it. That's just me personally and there's nothing wrong with doing that. Sometimes some Goober has put the lines on the last time so my bend method helps. I rarely have had to bend more than once.
I also like to lube the nuts with something while they're off of the injectors so they spin freely. That helps to get them started straight by hand. If you can spin them on 2 or 3 threads by hand, then you know that you can use the wrench.

 

[Old Goat]

My thinking on the Hard lines not lining up with the Injector threads, is over the years, prior owners changing the return Line caps and "O" Rings (Injectors also) have pried up on the Hard Lines and bent them to get clearance.
Several cycles of this over the years and this where we are today trying to get some of these things to line up, and not cross thread them.
Even taking the truck to a shop so the "professionals" can do their magic on them w/o a lot of experience, and cutting corners to speed up the job.

When I replaced the IP, Injectors, GP`s etc... last July/Aug, and trying to get all the hard lines to line up, I decided to just remove the Clamps, to aid in getting some of the problem child`s to thread on. It did help, and I agree getting the Clamps back on can/is a PI TA to get the little 1/4" bolt, rubber piece and 2 halves to come together. I did buy longer 1/4" bolts which helped.

If for some reason you need to replace the line clamps or they are missing, (they are on there to keep the vibration from cracking the lines) There is a ton of the new lines and or clamps flooding the market from China.
The cheapest hard line set start around $38 on up in price.
If you need just the clamps, $38 on up. From E-Bay etc...
So I bought the cheapest set just for new clamps if I needed them.
Some say the China hard line`s don`t line up correctly, haven`t tried yet.


Goat

 

[parkergn]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

Maybe I miss spoke, the hard line to the Injectors are threading on OK! It was just the low pressure hardline from the fuel filter to the IP, I believe “Inlet” side of the pump. The brass connector was stripped / crushed, and trying for ever to line it back up onto the fuel filter was impossible. I think previous owner crushed it attaching it last time it was removed. Tried to source fittings in town to swap in a rubber line, no luck. Ended up cutting the hardline in half, attached the two connectors, then spliced the hard line back together with a tight 1/4” rubber hose and some clamps. Not ideal but I was able to start my van again and get out of the parking lot I was stuck in here in the foothills of the Rocky’s.

The olives in these connections were dry and one was cracked. Cut some 5/16 hose square at 1/4” and made one new one, and salvaged an old one with some lube.

I’m still get air in the lines in the morning, and I believe it’s either my caps still (even after new o-rings and grease) or this make shift fuel line to the pump. I’d like to replace all my olives on the pump and see if that helps. Yet only injection pump shops seem to know what they are. Ideally just hardline delete.

I’m traveling for another 7000km, west coast back to Toronto. I’m thinking my best option is to install a “priming pump” like this from Russ.

https://russrepair.com/priming-pump-and-filter-kit/

I can source a flow thru / not anti-siphon pump to a town in the mountains and have more pleasant mornings starting until I have the time and materials to track down why I’m losing prime.

 

[parkergn]

Hot wire to where the Purple wire was connected on the relay, and through an in line Fuse. other wire to Ground.

Regarding my GLOW PLUGS. I spent a day in the dealers parking lot. A very friendly time actually. The service manager was very available to help me solve why my plugs were burning out so quickly. The night before I installed 4 new Bosch plugs drove 15 mins to the dealer. And in the morning they all were burnt out with only one start!! Without even really using them, had to use ether to turn over after all the fuel line work.

So I had something sending current to the glow plugs on while driving and with no indicator light. Low voltage, but enough to burn them out… the original purple line was disconnected from the relay and the controller was unplugged, and some how it was getting 5volts with the relay on…. and 100-200mV readings everywhere. Some GREMLINs in the harness!!

Ended up stripping my hardness to get the 8 spade connectors out. Pulled off my 200amp automotive relay from my camper inverter, and wired in new two 10gauge wires to the spade connectors, and activated by my push button. Eliminating any gremlins in the original wiring. (Note all this wiring is done with marine shrink-wrap crimps and connectors I have in my camper)

The only thing I didn’t have was any 100amp fuses. One for each side of the block. I have a spare 300amp breaker switch, would that do? Even as a safety to turn of the current if something malfunctions.

The two original glow plug orange wires have 2 inline fuses I could splice and attach back into my fresh wires. Figured it’s okay for a short time now, since it’s just a momentary push button.

Thanks again for everyone helping me troubleshoot. Currently in Lake Louise AB, snowboarding and will be able to order parts in Revelstoke BC for more troubleshooting.

 

[parkergn]

@The_Josh_Bear @Old Goat

So! My glow plugs are again pouched!!

Had another hard start this morning. Last week I’ve been bleeding my schrader valve, while my partner cranks the engine over. And has been starting great. 5 seconds on 10 second off. About 2-3 cycles.

Now looks like the plugs are all O.L. / no resistance….

Luckily gonna warranty the plugs and deep dive into the electrical…