Fuel Pump Woes

YJMike92

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I was not inferring it does not work, just it does not seem to be worth the effort. I rather spend the time and money to fix it as it came from the factory. Make it reliable and keep it simple, that is why I bought a IDI.
Bingo. The beauty of these early diesel engines is their simplicity. Get them started and they need nothing but fuel and air to run. Except for the fuel cut solenoid, no electrical is needed.
 

Big Bart

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Gents,

I guess I have had a different experience with mechanical pumps. (Diesel ((Trucks, Boats, and Generators)) or Gas.) I have never been able to kill my 2 batteries in my truck even when my glow plug controller was in safe mode in 40 degree mornings, or replacing my fuel filter, changing my return lines, or injectors. Never had a issue with the system re-priming due to air instrusion or running out of fuel. (Does take 3-5 crank runs.) So did not see the need to spend +$150 in parts and 2x the hours converting to an e-pump when my mechanical pump died. (Mechanical pump less than $35 and came with the block seal.)

Many have shared recently they are not having success. Going back in time Josh the Bear can share his wows. (Uses both styles now.) Sycostang 67 shared his wows, TTMan4 had issues with his first e-pump, and Lotzofgoodstuff stated that the well known Duralift might not be up to *****. But seems like the Holley Reds seem to be problem free for the two of you.

Cubey,

You were one of the “few” I was referring too that had good luck. Also the one who I was referring to as needing to add a pressure regulator to get your pump to work properly. Also running Holley Red.

Rock,

You do make a good point, there is a small percentage of pumps that do not leak out of the weep hole but rather into the block. But I have read in the past a member saying their arm wore out and fell into the oil pan because they left the old mechanical pump in place when going e-pump. So 100,000's miles later it wore through because it was not replaced at the EOL, say 80,000 miles.

But when your e-pump does not work it is harder and takes longer to diagnose. Is it the relay, fuse, wiring, ground, short, voltage drop, or pressure issue from a bad pump? Mechanical, hook up a pressure gauge to our schrader valve, and test for pressure at several RPM levels.

Also my local parts stores show the Holley Red as special order, but have the mechanical pumps in stock. Makes for a challenge if you are on a trip, might be stuck waiting for parts in BFE. Amazon Prime says I can get one Tuesday next week? (Down for 6 days? Guess you can keep a spare with you.)

The truth is to convert to a e-pump properly it is actually twice the time as putting on a new mechanical pump. -
1) Altering the fuel lines.
2) Drilling the frame for e-pump hold down screws.
3) Shopping, buying and installing a relay and associated wiring.
4) Running, covering, and zip tying all the wiring to prevent electrical shorts.
5) The ironic part having to remove the mechanical pump and making/buying a plate to seal the hole in the block. (Or risk what one member said. Their pump arm ground down over time and fell into the oil pan over time because it was never replaced/removed after it was EOL. That is shavings in the oil, potential engine failure if that pops out of the oil, and pulling the oil pan to fix that.)

So at face value it looks like the conversion is 2x the work, 3x the cost, and potentially more time to diagnose in the future to me. But if I had bad experiences like you mentioned with killing batteries, non-starts, priming issues, fuel filter changes, or go a step further killing a starter. Now nothing since converting, maybe I would be a convert to e-pumps too. But still don't see it as a upgrade? For many who did not use a Holley Red it was still just a failed experiment.

I think the lesson here is folks who tried Holley Red's seemed to have success. Those who bought random brands did not all have a good experience.
 
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Cubey

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But when your e-pump does not work it is harder and takes longer to diagnose. Is it the relay, fuse, wiring, ground, short, voltage drop, or pressure issue from a bad pump?

Also my local parts stores show the Holley Red as special order, but have the mechanical pumps in stock. Makes for a challenge if you are on a trip, might be stuck waiting for parts in BFE. Amazon Prime says I can get one Tuesday next week? (Down for 6 days? Guess you can keep a spare with you.)

The truth is to convert to a e-pump properly it is actually twice the time as putting on a new mechanical pump. -
1) Altering the fuel lines.
2) Drilling the frame for e-pump hold down screws.
3) Shopping, buying and installing a relay and associated wiring.
4) Running, covering, and zip tying all the wiring to prevent electrical shorts.
5) The ironic part having to remove the mechanical pump and making/buying a plate to seal the hole in the block.

Repair kits can be had for the Holley Red/Blue/Black pumps for a fraction of a second pump.

The way I "altered" the fuel lines where the mechanical pump was, is a couple of fittings to link the inlet and outlet lines with a hose between, so it's totally reversible to mechanical if I ever want to. only other alteration is the hose between the FSV and the pump/line to engine.

I have the fuse right at the driver side battery so it's easy to check.

Yes it cost me probably 6x as much as an AutoZone mechanical pump but it's far easier to service if I ever need to. No getting elbow deep into a tight space that's worse on van chassis. The block off plate was easy to get and fit perfectly. Removing the old pump is the easy part, putting in a new one is the hard part. I would have had to remove half the accessories (Alt, vac pump) to install a new one and hope I get the arm in the right spot.


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I have a weather proof connector soldered to the power wires, so the pump can be unplugged if it ever needs to be removed for repair. Plus two mounting nuts and bolts. and of course the two fuel hoses, but it's all easy to access by crawling under, lots of work space under there.

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If I want to test if my epump is working (pumping) I just turn the key and check the Schrader valve for spray when pressed in.

Is it worth the extra cost over mechanical? Probably not. Do I prefer it? Yes.
 
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Big Bart

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Cubey,

1) I am aware the pump and the brushes are replaceable but are the price of another mechanical pump. If the body cracks, rotor or windings fail I don’t think those are serviceble parts. Amazon says you can get those rebuild kits shipped to you Dec 1st. Most parts stores stock or can have a mechanical pump in hours not days. Maybe some stock Holley rebuild kits but mine does not from a quick check. You are on sabbatical, but I have limited time off work, so getting stuck waiting for parts is a consideration for me.

2) I only took me about 45 minutes to replace mine. But I was with another member this week who has a van, it was tight, so if your looking for the easy button on a van that is the easy button for next time.

3) You make my point, you will have to check fuses, wiring, relays, and fuel pressure to properly diagnose a fuel delivery issue. (Or be a parts changer till you get it right.). Lack of fuel could be the pump head, windings, brushes, voltage drop, or a damaged relay. It’s simply more complicated and time consuming to diagnose a e-pump issue. Spraying fuel does not prove the pump can sustain proper fuel pressure. It takes several items to work together for the e-pump to function. Mechanical pump is a arm, diaphragm, check valve, and case. They tend to work or not. Doesn’t work replace it, done for another 50-100k miles.
 

Farmer Rock

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@Big Bart , I was able to "PROPERLY" install my Holley red using factory drilled holes in the frame like I said, a constant duty solenoid, fuse block, wire loom and heat shrink connectors, as well as a weather proof connector on the pump like @Cubey showed. Only took me about 2 hours to do and it is by no means a Rube Goldberg job, but speaking of Rube, leaving a mechanical pump in place is something he would do. You are supposed to use a block off plate like was mentioned.
If you are really that worried about getting parts for the E pump, keep a rebuild kit on hand, it's a pretty simple solution.
Also, it's not rocket science if an E pump is working or not. You can very clearly hear the pump come on when you cycle the gps. Like Cubey said, push in the Schrader valve and see if you get a steady flow, but if you want to get real technical here, we can do the exact same thing as you would with a mechanical pump and put a pressure gauge on it.
The e pumps are typically triggered from the FSS, so that being the one wire that runs the whole engine, doesn't seem to complicate matters anymore.
So long as you are getting power to the relay or solenoid, it really only leaves that or a fuse. That's pretty simple.
And as for the wiring connections, well when done "PROPERLY", that shouldn't even be considered a problem. It's literally 1 wire with a connector on each end. With good connectors it'll never be a problem.

Happy Thanksgiving



Rock
 

Big Bart

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Rock,

My original point was many have not found it a upgrade. Some it was actually a downgrade and shared there member names. (Their e-pump experiment failed.) and went back to mechanical or kept both. So far that has not changed.

You made bold statements like “you would eat your words” if I had to prime my lines. “I will be cranking like there’s no tomorrow”. But I have had air intrusion, changed fuel filters, changed the lift pump, and due to the chronic failure of fuel level sensors run a tank out of diesel. So these comments where not accurate because when I have had these issues and it was the opposite experience. I did not need to spend hours fixing anything or lift the hood. A few turns of the key and whamo all is good again. Same starter and batteries 4 years later.

I do believe you have had success and your project was not a downgrade. Cubey states his big reason was to avoid the hard work and he rather pay more for the easy button. But I still don't see the "Upgrade" in performance either? Just percieved ease of replacement if and when it fails.

Then you made another bold statement "Also, it takes a lot longer to install a mechanical pump than an electric pump", so that's not really an issue. But now you are being upfront and changed the story to "Only took me about 2 hours to do" it right. As stated I had my alt, vac pump, and fuel pump all off and back on in under an hour.

When I write these I do so with the broader membership in mind. I believe many, like I did years ago, read past posts vs ask in new ones. So I write with the membership looking today and in the membership looking in future in mind. I try to share what they need to know to make the right diagnosis, the right fix, and what pitfalls might they be facing. (Like aftermarket glow plugs, or regular coolant.)

So I want to make sure we are telling all the facts (Or clearing up false ones.) and we are helping those who read this today or in the future the reals pro’s and con’s. You and Cubey sharing the pro’s and I the con's.

Rock I feel like this conversation although adversarial, has now flushed out the facts about both options. Perhaps those with vans will see the updside of a e-pump. (That would be a tough job on the side of the road while out of town.) Those with pick ups can decide if they want to spend some extra money and have a fun project. For those who want to move to a e-pump Holley Red's are working for members on this site. That there does not seem to be a performance gain its just another way to skin a cat.

Happy holidays

Mic Drop

c018461ae955518c97517c80c1050019-jpg.151789
 

Farmer Rock

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Rock,

My original point was many have not found it a upgrade. Some it was actually a downgrade and shared there member names. (Their e-pump experiment failed.) and went back to mechanical or kept both. So far that has not changed.
I'm gonna go ahead and pickup that mic here.
To be perfectly frank, you get what you pay for. Speaking from experience, those cheap little inline pumps are not big enough, and a lot of folks assume it don't make a difference, then badmouth e pumps. The same can be said about mechanical pumps. They have to be the appropriate size for the engine and application. It's just that mechanical pumps are a lot easier to match up because they came factory.
You made bold statements like “you would eat your words” if I had to prime my lines. “I will be cranking like there’s no tomorrow”. But I have had air intrusion, changed fuel filters, changed the lift pump, and due to the chronic failure of fuel level sensors run a tank out of diesel. So these comments where not accurate because when I have had these issues and it was the opposite experience. I did not need to spend hours fixing anything or lift the hood. A few turns of the key and whamo all is good again. Same starter and batteries 4 years later.
Bold statements? More like a sense of humor showing but hey, to each his own..
And the comments are completely accurate, even though they may not be for YOU..... I am overwhelmed with joy that you didn't have to go through that mess of priming the lines, but IT STILL HAPPENED, and on 4 different IDI trucks at that.
I do believe you have had success and your project was not a downgrade. Cubey states his big reason was to avoid the hard work and he rather pay more for the easy button. But I still don't see the "Upgrade" in performance either? Just percieved ease of replacement if and when it fails.

Then you made another bold statement "Also, it takes a lot longer to install a mechanical pump than an electric pump", so that's not really an issue. But now you are being upfront and changed the story to "Only took me about 2 hours to do" it right. As stated I had my alt, vac pump, and fuel pump all off and back on in under an hour.
If you don't see the upgrade by now, why are you still looking?
That other "bold statement" was me comparing the time it took ME to change the pumps last time I checked. I really don't care if it took you under an hour, it took me over to from underneath. And for the record I never "changed the story" and never will. That's my word, and I don't appreciate you twisting it around like that. Oh.... Btw, that was "PROPERLY" installed.
When I write these I do so with the broader membership in mind. I believe many, like I did years ago, read past posts vs ask in new ones. So I write with the membership looking today and in the membership looking in future in mind. I try to share what they need to know to make the right diagnosis, the right fix, and what pitfalls might they be facing. (Like aftermarket glow plugs, or regular coolant.)

So I want to make sure we are telling all the facts (Or clearing up false ones.) and we are helping those who read this today or in the future the reals pro’s and con’s. You and Cubey sharing the pro’s and I the con's.

Rock I feel like this conversation although adversarial, has now flushed out the facts about both options. Perhaps those with vans will see the updside of a e-pump. (That would be a tough job on the side of the road while out of town.) Those with pick ups can decide if they want to spend some extra money and have a fun project. For those who want to move to a e-pump Holley Red's are working for members on this site. That there does not seem to be a performance gain its just another way to skin a cat.
I agree, but this ain't a debate club. It's for the truck owners to decide whether or not they want either and why. Neither one of us can or should make that decision for them.

Here, you can have your mic back now.


Rock
 

franklin2

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Electric or mechanical, both work. That little pump I posted costs $17.00 on ebay with free shipping. I may have spent a hour drilling a mounting hole and running a single wire to the engine bay. I see no change in how the engine runs with it. I will let you know if it fails and leaves me stranded.
 

Cubey

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Electric or mechanical, both work. That little pump I posted costs $17.00 on ebay with free shipping. I may have spent a hour drilling a mounting hole and running a single wire to the engine bay. I see no change in how the engine runs with it. I will let you know if it fails and leaves me stranded.

I put a cheapo generic fuel pump on my generator and it didn't last very long at all, but maybe it didn't do well having to pull the gas a good 20ft from the generator's gasoline tank to the generator.
 

franklin2

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I put a cheapo generic fuel pump on my generator and it didn't last very long at all, but maybe it didn't do well having to pull the gas a good 20ft from the generator's gasoline tank to the generator.
Those little motorized cheap pumps have pretty poor ratings. But that little square pump I bought just sits there and makes a clicking noise. They are pretty reliable in my experience.

If you want to pay more money, you can actually get one with a Facet sticker on it.
 
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