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Carrier/facet pump observations

Discussion in '6.9L IH & 7.3L IDI Diesels' started by laserjock, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. laserjock

    laserjock Almost there... Supporting Member

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    So I’ve seen a lot of discussion around the carrier/facet lift pumps lately. I thought I’d share my experience. I plumbed in a fuel pressure gauge not long ago and finally got a chance to work the truck today.

    My pump is the 9-11 psi flavor (PN4022 I think). It’s on the pass fenderwell. Fuel pressure is measured off the filter restriction port on the filter head.

    Here is a shot pulling about the longest grade on I-68 in western MD.

    IMG_7113.jpg

    4th gear. 65-68 mph ish. Flat on the floor. Bull Moose IP. (Yes I was pretty happy with that especially given the stupidly huge headwind. Like driving with one foot on the brake!)

    So at idle I see 8+ psi. Here you can see it’s down just below 4. Should still be adequate fuel delivery. Now for the caveat. I had planned to write this post saying the pump sucks and I need more fuel. Coming into Cumberland MD I was pulling it almost to 0 psi. Then I switched tanks to the front tank and it barely ever dipped below 4 psi. So there is something with more restriction in the rear tank circuit.

    The other things that make my install different are the custom fuel lines -all bent aluminum thin wall tube for large ID. 3/8 OD feed and return. I ported the 1/8” npt fittings to larger than standard bore (1/4 or 5/16” ID don’t remember for sure but I think it was 1/4”).

    So what does all this mean? It means if you are having starvation issues with the facet pump, it may not be the pump’s fault. The stock fuel plumbing is more restrictive than my setup I would guess. In the end, I would still say it’s barely adequate but it will supply pretty much up to 9/10 th’s of what my truck can possibly use with my IP/turbo setup. For everyday driving, starvation should not be an issue especially on a stock-ish setup.

    In other news I may be sending my Stewart Warner sender back again as it is leaking. Just need to figure out from where.
     
  2. tbrumm

    tbrumm Full Access Member

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    Thanks for posting that up, Mike! I was going to start a new Facet Duralift thread soon, but since you started this one I think I will just add to it, and hopefully that is okay with you! I appreciate your observations regarding possible restrictions outside of the pump. I am one of the many guys that is having problems with running out of fuel with the Facet 40222 pump. The 40222 pump is the 33gph, 9-11psi model that I think most of us are running. I am running an essentially unmodified OEM turbo setup on my formerly NA engine. When I first installed the Facet (and the engine was still NA) the pump seemed to keep up. I would see 7.5psi at idle (measuring at the restricted filter sensor port as you are), and dropping to around 2.5-3psi under heavy throttle. The performance of the pump has appeared to degrade as I put more miles on it and I now see a bit under 6psi at idle and dropping to 1psi and often below under heavy throttle. In the other thread related to the performance of the Facet, @Thewespaul has discussed running the Holley pumps and the Mr. Gasket 105p pumps and regulating to the required psi. I have no personal experience with these pumps, I am sure they work fine but I do have some concerns switching over to that type of pump. The biggest concern I have is the fact that these pumps need to be mounted on the frame close to the tanks and "push" the fuel. My truck spends 6 months of the year in a salt brine bath, and I hate the idea of the pump being down on the frame and subjected to that. The other concern is the noise that I have "heard" that these pumps make. The Facet makes some noise, but it is more of a "hum" which is not objectionable. I also like the location of the Facet up in the engine bay, somewhat protected from the elements. It is easy to see what it is doing and is in a location where I can easily access it to pull and clean the filter if needed, or remove it entirely and replace. So, I decided to give the Facet Duralift 40290 pump a try. I do not have it installed yet so cannot report on the results. This pump is the 50gph, 12-15psi model. It still is restricted by the 1/8" npt inlet and outlet fittings. Obviously, with the 12-15psi pressure range, I am going to need a regulator to get the pressure down to the required 6-7psi. Once I get the 40290 pump installed, I will post up my experiences to this thread. Maybe the 40290 pump will be a working alternative for those of us who already have out trucks set up and plumbed for the Facet Duralift, rather than revamping our fuel systems for a a different type of frame mounted pump.
    Facet Duralift 40290 pump - 12-15psi, 50gph: 002.JPG
     
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  3. laserjock

    laserjock Almost there... Supporting Member

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    Honestly, I think I would just give it a try without the regulator. The only thing it does is mess with the advance curve a bit and at heavy use,I think you will end up back in the 7-9 range. I’m intrigued to see what happens. I’d really rather not re-plumb the truck. A “drop in” solution would be preferable for sure. I don’t know why they put such small ports on these pumps. I honestly think the fittings may be a lot of people’s problems.
     
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  4. The_Josh_Bear

    The_Josh_Bear Full Access Member

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    @laserjock you ported the 1/8npt holes on the pump itself?
    That's really interesting about the difference between front to rear tanks with different line setups. I'm quite dissatisfied with my Facet performance so I'm interested in all of this.
     
  5. Garbage_Mechan

    Garbage_Mechan Garbage Mechanic

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    A vacuum gauge plumbed into the pump suction would be a good diagnostic tool. There are ones made that hold the peak reading just like a air filter restriction indicator.
     
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  6. Garbage_Mechan

    Garbage_Mechan Garbage Mechanic

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    I get down below 1 psi on both tanks.
    I have an adjustable pressure relief valve in place of the return orfice. Slight improvement. Regulating the size of the return orfice or similar idea could be the key to doing without a regulator.
     
  7. Thewespaul

    Thewespaul Supporting Vendor Supporting Member

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    Thank you for sharing your readings Mike, great discussion here and a lot of good points made already.

    Here is a public upload of a service bulletin for the factory turbo trucks, it details the changes made for the addition of a turbo, and revises the engine performance charts, Mike I think the info on the fan clutch and air dam may interest you. It does not list a change in the lift pump for the addition of the turbo, and the minimum pressure and volume specs are the same for na and turbo.

    https://mid-atlanticema.org/wp-content/uploads/93-94-7.3-IDI-Turbocharged-Diesel-Engine.pdf

    It says at the bottom of the page that we need to see at least 1 psi of pressure and one pint of fuel from the lift pump at 675 rpms in 30 seconds. That gives us a formula for a minimum fuel volume we can manipulate. Im going to round to 700 rpms, but basically we should get 2 pint per minute at idle, converting that to gallons per hour we get 15 gph at idle, which means just for a stock IDI to idle properly, youre already using half of the Facet 40222's rated fuel flow. Since the mechanical lift pump is a fixed displacement, we can multiply our idle speed by 5 to see what minimum volume we should be getting at 3500 which would be the rpm which the most fuel would be needed for the IP. 15 gph x 5 = 75 gph.

    This means we should at the least have 75 gph to supply a stock IDI, whether turbo or na ford doesnt seem to think it matters. @Macrobb has reported that the stock lift pump has been able to supply a 110cc pump without issue. I think for the E pumps we need to be looking at pumps in excess of 100 gph to correctly supply the amount of fuel needed for modified turbo idis, it is much better to have more fuel than you need in a supply system and regulate it down so you have a steady pressure, and not an under spec'd and over worked pump, which is never good for reliability.
     
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  8. bbjordan

    bbjordan Snow Monkey

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    The Facet 40222 is one of the better upgrades I did on my truck.
    The truck has a baby moose pump (not turned up), and a turbo.
    I haven't had an issue with it starving for fuel. It rarely gets above 2500 rpm, so take this FWIW.

    The only time I have have had an issue is when I got caught in cold weather when running my WMO cocktail. The mix is 85% WMO, 10% RUG, and 5% Bio-diesel. I could motor along at highway speed, but if the engine got loaded, it would start bucking like it was running out of fuel. I would quickly flipped to my rear tank, which was straight diesel, and it was ok again.

    So, thicker fuel is a problem in cold weather.

    Another great upgrade I did was the 3G alternator upgrade. I noticed a higher voltage on my system, and maybe that helps the Facet pump?

    My 6.9 ¢ worth.
     
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  9. BrianX128

    BrianX128 Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    I firmly believe a lot of the issues those with the facets are reporting are a leaking bottom bowl allowing air in at wot but not "pulling" enough fuel from the bowl under normal driving conditions. I had a thread with videos of what my pump was doing floating around here somewhere. I could get it down to 1 psi at 3k rpms hauling uphill in 4th floored. Tightened the bowl and can't get below 3psi and will go as high as 8.5
     
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  10. tbrumm

    tbrumm Full Access Member

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    I will give the 40290 pump a try without the regulator first and report back with the pressure results.
     
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  11. The_Josh_Bear

    The_Josh_Bear Full Access Member

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    Interesting!
     
  12. Clb

    Clb Another old truck Supporting Member

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    Brian...
    was the filter housing wet on the outside?
    Curious how you found the air intrusion there...
     
  13. BrianX128

    BrianX128 Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    For some context the first video is how I noticed something was up visually it was just dirty and wet on the outside of the pump.

    The second one I ran it from a jug of trans fluid and since it was thicker it didn't pull any air then for some reason..

    Third video visually shows the leak at like 33-35 seconds in. I tightened the bottom bowl in a vice more (it's plastic be careful) and it was fine ever since. At WOT the fuel pressure stays above 3 instead of falling to 1.
     
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  14. Comptech

    Comptech Full Access Member

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    I ran a Barry Grant bypass return system when I was still racing.It is so much quieter and easier on the pump not to be "pushing" against the regulator.I have been off my feet for two months, itching to get back to tinkering on my junk.Next project is a good lift system and return.I am still having a bit of trouble bending over the hood of anything right now..esp s lifted truck.
     
  15. MICHAEL MICHAUD

    MICHAEL MICHAUD Full Access Member

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    Wow okay. I was pretty happy with my pump but I have always thought my truck was slightly gutless especially up hill with a load. Half way to the floor and all the way to the floor I don't notice accelleration difference.

    Engine has maybe 2.5k miles. I have new IP +10%, injectors, and cam from Typ4. I have only ever driven the truck with the motor I rebuilt so I just figured its old diesel truck how fast could it be. I am IDIT as well.

    I'm real curious what would happen if I slightly advance my timing and get a larger lift pump. What the heck are we supposed to do with our 40222 models. I bought that pump because it's the one that is posted in the stickies. Danggg.

    No actual problems for me besides it just doesnt have the get up and go that I was expecting. I have no baseline to judge off of though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019

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