Am I wasting my time with my 088 ATS?

[The Warden]

Hello!

As I've complained a few times in the past I've been less than overwhelmed at the performance of the ATS 088 non-gated turbo I installed in my truck in 2004. Compared to numbers others have described with both the 088 and with other turbos, it seems to me that my boost to EGT ratio's quite low....the most recent benchmark I have is last week, when I was driving home from my mom's house up in Hippieville. My truck was empty, it was a cool night, and AFAIK everything's fundamentally happy (although I admit my IP and injectors leave some to be desired). Going up a moderate hill at about 55 to 60 mph in 5th gear (according to ringpinion.com, should have been between 1850 and 2025 RPM; no tach), my pyro got as high as 950 F, with the probe in the up-pipe pretty close to the turbine. My boost got all the way up to 2.5 psi. From what others have described, that sounds abnormally low to me. Am I right, or am I imagining things? FWIW I've mentioned this to a few other board members and they were surprised by how low my boost was at that pyro temp. Also, either because of issues with the turbo or because of how I drive, I've noticed that my boost gauge rarely moves, and doesn't really go over 1.5 or so psi unless I have my foot to the floor going up a hill. I don't recall EVER seeing the boost gauge go over 5 psi

The other part of this is, I'm planning to install an intercooler in the near future. IIRC most people who've done an IC swap either had a gated turbo or a Hypermax Pulse, which may as well be a gated turbo I'm starting to think that, when I take the truck out of service, pulling the turbo off and having it gone through might be a good idea...if it's worth the time.

Which leads me to my primary question. Is it worth it to go through the 088 and re-install it? Or would I be better off trying to find a wastegated turbo, install that, and then sell the 088 kit? Money's tight, so I'd have to hope for some luck with finding a used kit that I can afford. Does anyone have any insight as to how an 088 in good condition might behave with an intercooler? FWIW I have head studs, so going a bit over the "normal" max boost PSI isn't a bad thing...although I certainly wouldn't make a habit of it.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated....thank you in advance

 

[FordGuy100]

Well....what kind of boost does it do at higher rpm's? I would drop it into 3rd doing 50mph and hammer it all the way to the govenor and see what it will do. With its big exhaust housing it really needs the rpm's to help get it to produce some good boost.

 

[DeepRoots]

warden, with the c6 I always had a ton of boost with the 088.
course the engine was singing 3000rpms all day long.

swap in the zf and I see the same as you. For awhile I thought I had a exhaust leak, but never could find one. unless I REALLY get on it, I don't see much boost.
The only thing that makes me feel good about it is I have new injectors and a moose pump and don't smoke unless wide open. So the extra fuel is getting used.
For a crap hauler I have no problems with it..... Instead of messing with the turbo, I'm gonna be spending my money on go fast goodies for the 390fe.

Course the truck still runs faster than any one I've ever seen, so I have no complaints.

Drew

 

[RLDSL]

As much as I curse my 088 every time I have to work around it, the thing will boost as much as I need and I have my pump set very conservatively, as in no smoke. Have you checked the orings at the snail where the turbo pushes into it and the oring where it seats on the manifold? Is there a rubber seal on the mounting bolt? You can loose a lot of boost at these points. I can tromp on mine in second going down thee street and get 3-5psi but it has to be wound up a bit. That's the nature of the beast. When I'mtowing I have all the boost I need.

 

[reklund]

I had an 088 on my truck for a while- it's the turbo that was on the engine when it was in Diesel Power magazine.

i never saw much over 6 psi, and more like 4-5 after I installed the ATS intercooler. I had to work the truck HARD to get any boost out of it, and it never performed like I'd hoped. I ran it for a time with the DPS pump and injectors on it, and it made like 10 psi with all that fuel, but it didn't do me much good because it wouldn't idle...

I had a major failure of the 088 pulling my rockcrawler back from Ouray to Albuquerque- something let go and it started to dump lots of oil into the intake. At that point, I sold the 088 kit as a "project/needs a rebuild" and shelled out for my ATS Aurora 2000 kit.

The new wastegated turbo makes all the difference- more useable boost, and better fuel economy. Having had both, I say ditch the 088 in favor of something newer if funds will allow.

Ryan

 

[Clydesdale]

[Hi-jack] You're the IDI that was in Diesel Power? Right on! Read that article..... Nice truck...[/Hi-Jack]

 

[david85]

You should be able to get close to 5 PSI @ 2000 RPM and 7~10 PSI by 3000 as a general rule.

I suspect your high EGTs were more to do with over fueling and not enough air. Had the climb been in the daytime, you probably would have seen some coal rolling.

However if you want to start building up interms of performance, the 088 is not the turbo to start off with as much as I hate to say it. Its a good turbo for mid RPM band and long range towing because when working properly, the modest amounts of boost come with fairly low amounts of EGTs compared to most other setups that I know of. But if you want to go beyond what it was designed for, I would start looking for something that is easier to upgrade. And when I say that I mean even other turbochargers may not perform as well as you like right out of the box, but depending on how they are put together (the 093 for exmple) it can be upgraded much more easily.

 

[Diesel JD]

My 088 has always been pretty low on the boost when I drive conservatively. I don't have overdrive yet so 50 mph is just under 2000 rpm, and that is about where I start seeing measurable boost with light to moderate throttle. I feel like if I had a big load it would give me the extra power I needed to make the truck useable. If I really get on it, this truck will push 10psi or more but that's rolling more smoke initially than I would like and darn near WOT. I wonder if a boost reference would make these things better, you could use the throttle a little harder but the fuel would delay getting there until the boost had been made. I don't know where the 088 runs out of it's efficiency range, my future hope for a High Output IDI so far ditch the 088 and run some sort of a custom system, maybe from a PSD or a DT466 or 360.

 

[Rot Box]

I feel that the 088 is a good turbo for towing on the highway. I don't care for the huge amount of lag and it really is worthless for driving around town, but once the thing is wound up it seems to work great. BLUECOOT's (ob member) has seen 13psi and mine has gone as high as 11 with a light haze of smoke at wot.

I think you have a different problem as those PSI numbers just don't make sense to me. If you have the stock intake I have found them to be very restrictive as well. I like the fact that the turbo doesn't sit directly above the injector/glowplug the way some of the other ones do.

That said pulling the 088 out of a truck is one of the worst experiences of my life... That worthless pos stupid f$*#*#@( slip coupler is the worst thing I have ever seen and it has given me nightmares to this day In the long run it is easiest to pull the whole cab off the truck to remove this system (I swear ) its that bad.

In the long run I think there are better turbo options out there, but until mine gives up I don't see any reason to swap it. I really think you have a different problem...

 

[OB_WAN]

with a non-wastegated turbo, I did a lot of reading to figure out what I'd have to do to keep the EGTs down. The engine needs high RPMs to do so. higher RPMs will build more boost which will burn more fuel and keep the engine cool. Boost is provided as you need it. Most of the time my guage is sitting at or close to 0.

With my E40D in overdrive, @ 2000 rpms pulling a hill, I'm puffing smoke and watching the temp guage rise with minimal to no boost. as soon as I downshift, hear the turbo spooling and watching my boost increase (depending on if it's needed), smoke goes away and temp guage recovers.

If you want more boost and if you haven't done so already, some simple ways are to wrap the exhaust leading into the turbo(keep exhaust gas as hot=expanded as possible to spin the turbine), wrap the downpipe till it expands(reduce backpressure by reducing turbulance caused by cooling gases), and ensure you have large enough exhaust to get rid of backpressure(like a 3" or larger straightpipe, muffler optional but if so, ensure it's high-flow). Also, if I read correctly, those older kits had small downpipes. someone did an upgrade on theirs mod'ing a PSD downpipe if I remember correctly(at least I think it was an 088).

Just some thoughts based on my limited(but successful) experience and extensive reading so far.

 

[DeepRoots]

mine has always been wrapped.
The point here is that you need an actual load on the engine.

If I get crazy with the throttle or have a trailer it isn't hard to see that air is there.

 

[RLDSL]

all of which reminds me, do you still have the stock muffler on the thing? WHen I first put my turbo on I couldn't get more than 3 lbs out of it and it was due to the clogged up factory muffler. I put a 4" system on with a straight through big truck muffler and it was like night and day

 

[SparkandFire]

Your definately wasting your time Tim- You should give me that turbo right away!

I won't complain!

 

[WrickM]

Your definately wasting your time Tim- You should give me that turbo right away!

I won't complain!

heck i'll give you 100 bucks for that pos. . .

 

[The Warden]

Sorry for taking so long to respond...I've been swamped with work and haven't had time to sit down and write out a decent reply until now.

Have you checked the orings at the snail where the turbo pushes into it and the oring where it seats on the manifold? Is there a rubber seal on the mounting bolt? You can loose a lot of boost at these points.

I didn't know there was supposed to be a rubber seal on the bolt holding the snail to the intake manifold, and I admit that boost/exhaust leaks ARE a possible problem. I know for a fact that I have an intermittent exhaust leak, but from what I can tell, it seals itself up at higher RPM's, so I wasn't thinking of that as a problem in this case. Intake leaks are also a possibility...one way or another, I need to make sure that everything's sealed up; the real question is, how would a properly-working 088 work with an intercooler compared to a wastegated turbo?

You should be able to get close to 5 PSI @ 2000 RPM and 7~10 PSI by 3000 as a general rule.

I suspect your high EGTs were more to do with over fueling and not enough air. Had the climb been in the daytime, you probably would have seen some coal rolling.

However if you want to start building up interms of performance, the 088 is not the turbo to start off with as much as I hate to say it. Its a good turbo for mid RPM band and long range towing because when working properly, the modest amounts of boost come with fairly low amounts of EGTs compared to most other setups that I know of. But if you want to go beyond what it was designed for, I would start looking for something that is easier to upgrade. And when I say that I mean even other turbochargers may not perform as well as you like right out of the box, but depending on how they are put together (the 093 for exmple) it can be upgraded much more easily.

I don't get a large amount of black smoke out the exhaust pipe, so I don't think I'm severely overfueling...although I suppose anything's possible. I do tend towards higher EGT's than I'm comfortable with, though; I seem to average 500 to 600 degrees at 65 mph, which IIRC is about 100 degrees more than what others have mentioned. I'll get a bit more boost with downshifting, but usually only a pound or 1.5 pounds more, and the EGT's don't go down any...if anything, they'll go up a little bit. Certainly, I've never seen close to the numbers you're talking about...how much of that's the result of leaks and how much of that's the result of problems with the turbo is one of the big unknowns, and one of the reasons I started this thread. If the 088's a decent candidate for intercooling, I'm fine with trying to seal everything up, possibly having this turbo gone through after Russ gets back, and running it as-is. If a wastegated turbo's going to be better for an intercooled engine, I may as well do the upgrade now. FWIW, I'm not trying to make a hot-rod truck...my goal is something that's reliable, can pull a heavy load down the highway without throwing a fit, and be reasonably fuel efficient. I was pulling a 7K trailer with my truck about a month ago (15K total weight) and was surprised at how much the truck was struggling in spots...I don't recall my performance being any worse when I was naturally aspirated

I think you have a different problem as those PSI numbers just don't make sense to me. If you have the stock intake I have found them to be very restrictive as well. I like the fact that the turbo doesn't sit directly above the injector/glowplug the way some of the other ones do.

That said pulling the 088 out of a truck is one of the worst experiences of my life... That worthless pos stupid f$*#*#@( slip coupler is the worst thing I have ever seen and it has given me nightmares to this day In the long run it is easiest to pull the whole cab off the truck to remove this system (I swear ) its that bad.

I'm sure I have problems with my turbo...as mentioned, I definitely have leaks, and I think the turbo could stand to be gone through. My real question is, considering that I'm planning to intercool, is it worth my time to intercool the 088, or combine this with an upgrade to a wastegated turbo that might perform better with the intercooler? And, I agree COMPLETELY with you about installing the bloody thing....the slip-pipe fittings SUCK!! I've had to install and remove the downpipe twice now...first time when I installed it, and second time when I put the ZF in. That downpipe and I are not friends

all of which reminds me, do you still have the stock muffler on the thing? WHen I first put my turbo on I couldn't get more than 3 lbs out of it and it was due to the clogged up factory muffler. I put a 4" system on with a straight through big truck muffler and it was like night and day

I have a 3" straight pipe coming off the downpipe...no muffler for me after I installed the turbo, I ran the truck for about 4 years with no exhaust system at all beyond the downpipe...that made for a loud cab but, "performance" from the turbo was about the same then as when I got the exhaust pipe hooked up, so I don't think exhaust restrictions are an issue.

BTW, nice try to the lst two of you if I do upgrade, I'll be selling it, but not quite that cheap...haven't figured out how much I would ask for it yet, but if I buy a different turbo, I'm going to be trying to recoup at least some of the expense...

FWIW, with 4.10's and the Doug Nash OD, I'm hoping I'll be turning 1700 to 1900 RPM's at 65 to 70 mph (my empty cruising speed), so I'm shooting for a setup that'll be most efficient at that speed...my (possibly unrealistic) goal is 20 mpg empty at 70 mph

Thank you all again