"87" Ford 6.9 another hard starting question...

[Apollo62x]

Have a 87 ford f250 with the 6.9. When I bought her 2 years ago she would start in 2 sec. Than it started to take longer. Have replaced the glow plugs 1 1/2 a go by the local Ford dealer because it was only $200 bucks and figured they would be safer since they had not been changed in a while from what I could tell. Used good quality plugs. Bought a new glow plug harness since the OEM are obsolete from a guy on Ebay. Just had the return hoses replaced and new batteries. The glow plug relay/controller (it's the box type, I think refered to as being the 7.3 version...not the tube version) makes the light go on and than 10 secs or so it starts clicking like I believe it should but has been giving me a hard start condition.
After it starts the first time normally starts pretty fast although not always warm... lately. Once started runs fine, love this truck. I had the return lines done by a shop since I did not feel confident myself. Don't know where to start in troubleshooting this problem. Have thought about a gear reduction starter. The temps are in the 40 degree to 65 degree where I live. I checked for air in the line by hooking up to the fuel filter valve and burping it, only fuel comes out when running. Does not smoke much unless I stomp on it, than just a bit of white smoke. 140,000 miles. Seems to be getting worse in just the last 2 weeks. As I said, runs fine other than that.
Any advice on where to start?
Thanks for your time...

 

[IDIBRONCO]

I'm not trying to tell you to throw money at your truck, but it does sound like your starter may be getting weak. When it slowly wears out, it's extremely hard to tell that it's spinning slower than it used to. What would be ideal is if you could find someone close by who would let you borrow a known good starter for long enough to test it out.
Another thing is that maybe your batteries are getting weak. Mine went bad in my Blue Truck a while back. It was slow enough that I didn't realize it until they were almost shot. The engine still started fine, but one day, it suddenly acted like I had a dead battery. It still started well enough after the engine was warm, just not cold. Two new batteries later, it started up great once more. Taking voltage readings won't be able to tell much if anything at all. Batteries need to be load tested separately.

 

[david85]

Plug your block heater in overnight and then try starting it. If you have a quick start with the engine warm, then you know its 99% still in your glow plug system. If you still have hard starting, then you may have a fuel drainback issue.

There is a large electrical connector near the passenger side valve cover for the engine harness. Two large (10Ga) wires in this connector carry the power for the glow plugs. This is an old-school connector without any rubber seals, so they are prone to corrode after 30+ years (often highlighted by a melted connector). Also trace power back to the passenger side fender liner and refresh everything. I suspect there may be a power drop that's preventing full power from getting to the glow plugs.

 

[Big Bart]

Some thoughts -

1) Timing is everything with these trucks and keeping it in time is important. As your injectors and pump wear your timing changes. I would start by checking your timing if you have the equipment.
2) Next check on a cold start you are getting +12v power to the three solenoids on the IP. Turn the key to on but do not start the truck. One allows fuel, so your engine can run.(Later it turns off the engine.) It gets power when the key is on. Second, next to it and is the IP advance, this one is very important to a cold start. If working it will advance your timing. When working and your timing is correct you will notice considerably more diesel clatter for 30-120 seconds upon cold start and it will stay on till your engine is over about 120 *. It gets power from a sensor on the engine block. Third is your cold idle soleniod, it is supposed to hold the throttle slightly more open to increase the engine idle when cold. (Giving you a smoother idle and helping heat up the engine.) It gets power from the same engine sensor. It will not push the throttle more open, but once you push the throttle down it will extend and hold it further open till the engine warms and cuts power to it and the IP advance. When the sensor is cold it lets power go through it to the IP advance and throttle solenoid. So test with a test light, check that both get power when the engine is cold and the key is in the on position.
3) It sounds like your gp system is working, otherwise it would not run the WTS light for 10 or so seconds. When it senses a issue or is not working it will just flash the WTS light for a second and start to click the gp relay to cycle the glow plugs.(But they do not get hot.). With that said up to 3 glow plugs can be dead before the controller stops the warm up process. So perhaps your system has lost 1,2, or 3 glow plugs. Thus why you sense it is not starting as well. You can run a ohms test on each glow plug in the engine and look for ones with no resistance between the block and glow plug tip. (Open means it is dead.) You can hook a test light to positive on the battery and touch the test light probe to the glow plug tip, if good it will light.
4) Above it is pointed out that engine start rpm is important. If you think your truck is cranking slower when cold clean up your terminals and grounds. Have the batteries tested. As stated above battery testers are not designed to test multiple batteries at the same time. So bring tools to unhook the batteries so the auto parts guy tests each one properly while unhooked. Always replace batteries in pairs! But if you have a truck, RV, tractor with 12v, or neighbor with one, try starting cold with a jump start from another running vehicle. If things improve look to the batteries and then to the starter.
5) If your truck is taking 3-5 10 second cranks, likely you have fuel drain back. Everything else is working, it just takes a few cranks to refill the fuel lines and fuel filter. Often this also causes uneven idle and a stall of the engine right after it starts for the first time. Drain back and air intrusion plague these IDI engines, so very common for this issue to appear. Likely not from the work done but from other areas. We can go into more detail once you narrow in on the likely issue.
6) Not likely your issue here, but as your compression lowers it does get harder to start the engine especially as temps drop. But you have lower mileage so not likely a factor here.

Check out the suggestions we all made above and let us know what you find is working or not. Then we can help you with next steps.

 

[Big Bart]

Sorry just noticed you mentioned new batteries, don’t rule them out, but likely not a issue here. One lesson you will learn on this site is never assume a new or rebuilt part works or will not fail shortly after. But batteries usually do not die weeks after installing them.

Can you share why you replaced the batteries and the return lines? Both are solid maintenance but wondering if these were related to the newer cold starting issues.

Also keep in mind the battery cables on these trucks are getting old and the cover is splitting so many have started to corrode. If yours are in bad shape RockAuto has replacements.

 

[franklin2]

Before I give any advice I need a better explanation on what the problem is.

The glowplugs stay on for about 10 seconds and then start cycling correct?

Then you go to crank it. Does it try to start? Does it start and then stop?

If it starts and then stops, does it finally start after some more cranking?

If after cycling the plugs, does it not try to start at all? If so, is there any white smoke coming out of the tailpipe while cranking?

 

[Apollo62x]

Have a 87 ford f250 with the 6.9. When I bought her 2 years ago she would start in 2 sec. Than it started to take longer. Have replaced the glow plugs 1 1/2 a go by the local Ford dealer because it was only $200 bucks and figured they would be safer since they had not been changed in a while from what I could tell. Used good quality plugs. Bought a new glow plug harness since the OEM are obsolete from a guy on Ebay. Just had the return hoses replaced and new batteries. The glow plug relay/controller (it's the box type, I think refered to as being the 7.3 version...not the tube version) makes the light go on and than 10 secs or so it starts clicking like I believe it should but has been giving me a hard start condition.
After it starts the first time normally starts pretty fast although not always warm... lately. Once started runs fine, love this truck. I had the return lines done by a shop since I did not feel confident myself. Don't know where to start in troubleshooting this problem. Have thought about a gear reduction starter. The temps are in the 40 degree to 65 degree where I live. I checked for air in the line by hooking up to the fuel filter valve and burping it, only fuel comes out when running. Does not smoke much unless I stomp on it, than just a bit of white smoke. 140,000 miles. Seems to be getting worse in just the last 2 weeks. As I said, runs fine other than that.
Any advice on where to start?
Thanks for your time...

Before I give any advice I need a better explanation on what the problem is.

The glowplugs stay on for about 10 seconds and then start cycling correct?

Then you go to crank it. Does it try to start? Does it start and then stop?

If it starts and then stops, does it finally start after some more cranking?

If after cycling the plugs, does it not try to start at all? If so, is there any white smoke coming out of the tailpipe while cranking?

Thats what happens, new batteries (interstate from Costco) had the glowplugs replaced by the dealer little over a year ago with OEM, just had the return hoses done, but I had a bad expierence with the mechanic...so I'm a bit leary of the quality of the job, but it was a little better after the work. (it was not starting before)
I took it in a while ago, to the Ford dealer and they broke a bunch of the ends to the glow plug harness that attach to the plugs...brittle plastic (really the ends were going bad) and I had to get a "new" glow plug harness on Ebay from a guy that makes them himself in the States. It has been smoking more than before (White smoke) but not bellowing, just a bit of the unburned fuel after cranking a while. than a puff after I step on it after it warms up for a few minutes...driving down the road ...again if I give it extra throttle...Sometimes if I make sure to let it cycle a bit it will start fairly well, just not like it did when I got it. I'm thinking of a gear-reduction starter to get it spinning?
Thanks for your help,
Kevin

 

[Apollo62x]

Sorry just noticed you mentioned new batteries, don’t rule them out, but likely not a issue here. One lesson you will learn on this site is never assume a new or rebuilt part works or will not fail shortly after. But batteries usually do not die weeks after installing them.

Can you share why you replaced the batteries and the return lines? Both are solid maintenance but wondering if these were related to the newer cold starting issues.

Also keep in mind the battery cables on these trucks are getting old and the cover is splitting so many have started to corrode. If yours are in bad shape RockAuto has replacements.

I first replaced them with Motorcraft from the dealer, than they went bad within 3 months according to them, they replaced those than the new ones and it happened again. I have a volt meter addon installed...seems to be charging to 14 volts as I drive...but after the second pair bought 2 more at my expense..Interstate from Costco....partly because the dealer made it known they would really not like to work on such an old truck...bast*rds...I used them because they were near me, the best shop is across town, figured even though I was payng premium...they would at least do a good job...dumb me.

 

[Apollo62x]

I'm not trying to tell you to throw money at your truck, but it does sound like your starter may be getting weak. When it slowly wears out, it's extremely hard to tell that it's spinning slower than it used to. What would be ideal is if you could find someone close by who would let you borrow a known good starter for long enough to test it out.
Another thing is that maybe your batteries are getting weak. Mine went bad in my Blue Truck a while back. It was slow enough that I didn't realize it until they were almost shot. The engine still started fine, but one day, it suddenly acted like I had a dead battery. It still started well enough after the engine was warm, just not cold. Two new batteries later, it started up great once more. Taking voltage readings won't be able to tell much if anything at all. Batteries need to be load tested separately.

I think I will put a gear reduction starter on it and see if it helps, does seem to crank slower than it did...but its such a hard they to know. "I think it is spinning slower"

 

[Cubey]

My RV has a Mitsubishi starter, maybe even the original from 1985, and this is how it starts with good glow plugs, no fuel system leaks, and healthy batteries (a couple years old). It was at 11am in August 2021 in Idaho Falls, but still.

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[Big Bart]

Thats what happens, new batteries (interstate from Costco) had the glowplugs replaced by the dealer little over a year ago with OEM, just had the return hoses done, but I had a bad expierence with the mechanic...so I'm a bit leary of the quality of the job, but it was a little better after the work. (it was not starting before)
I took it in a while ago, to the Ford dealer and they broke a bunch of the ends to the glow plug harness that attach to the plugs...brittle plastic (really the ends were going bad) and I had to get a "new" glow plug harness on Ebay from a guy that makes them himself in the States. It has been smoking more than before (White smoke) but not bellowing, just a bit of the unburned fuel after cranking a while. than a puff after I step on it after it warms up for a few minutes...driving down the road ...again if I give it extra throttle...Sometimes if I make sure to let it cycle a bit it will start fairly well, just not like it did when I got it. I'm thinking of a gear-reduction starter to get it spinning?
Thanks for your help,
Kevin

You may have a air issue if the mechanic you mentioned above was not reputable. Usually where there is no air problem diesel leaks or creates a wet area where the leak is. Do you see any wet return lines, caps, or injectors?

 

[Apollo62x]

Before I give any advice I need a better explanation on what the problem is.

The glowplugs stay on for about 10 seconds and then start cycling correct?

Then you go to crank it. Does it try to start? Does it start and then stop?

If it starts and then stops, does it finally start after some more cranking?

If after cycling the plugs, does it not try to start at all? If so, is there any white smoke coming out of the tailpipe while cranking?

I replaced the starter with a Napa gear reduction...wonders!! Starts right up, (feels like its going to throw the engine right out of the engine bay...$140.00 -20% AAA discount, plus $100.00 to have installed...best $212.00 I've ever spent.... still a bit of white smoke during heavy acceleration and my mileage is down to 12MPG after being around 16mpg when I first got her. Only put on 10,000 miles...3 oil changes since than. 12 is a little low isn't it? I do not have a heavy foot.
Thanks for all your attention, really appreciate all you guys as well. I don't get a chance to log on as much as I would like, hence the delay in responding. Love this old truck, think I could pull my house off its foundation, than haul it to the dump.

 

[Apollo62x]

Forgot to answer all the questions...
The glow plugs do go on and than cycle.
It stays started.
Does not stall after start. Idles at 800rpm.
Do you think it was just a weak starter?
Cheers

 

[IDIBRONCO]

Do you think it was just a weak starter?

I think that you answered this question yourself in your previous post, #12.
As for the fuel mileage, it's not good. You should still be able to get your original 16 MPG. Between the white smoke and your drop in fuel mileage, I would first suspect your IP timing. You should have it checked and reset if necessary. Russ (Typ4) is from around you somewhere, I think. Maybe he would be willing to check your timing for you.

 

[Big Bart]

Ditto on start with the timing based on your symptoms. Know that your timing changes as the IP and injectors wear. The IP can also move if not tighten down well. So 10,000 miles later your injectors or IP may have worn and likely changed your timing 2-5 degrees. If someone set the timing by ear prior (+90% of shops members go to do not have a timing meter for these trucks.) then you might have already been 2-5 degrees off. Now 4-10 degrees off Due to wear 10,000 miles later.

IDIbronco and I say it over and over. You need a timing meter for these trucks. Timing is everything on these trucks, not having one is like not having a torque wrench. You might get close or you might blow a head gasket. You can experiment and get close with the IP timing, but how close???? For $200 you can buy a new overstock DTI Tech Time on eBay and dial it in. I would suggest folks buy a timing meter before spending $500 on new injectors. (Spoiler alert -need both to due injectors or the IP properly.)

What I can tell you is you will not regret buying a meter, but you likely will regret not buying one. Likely you will kick yourself in the rear for not buying one sooner.

However $200 is a fair amount of money. So if a meter is out of budget as IDIBronco shared don’t do one and done, try 3 settings a dimes width of each other via the pump alignment marks. Find the spot that has good starting, good mpg, and good power. You are likely now 2-4 degrees from spec.