6.9L IP on a 7.3L?

adamsanders

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Ok I will try advancing the timing a bit more and see what that does. Im apprehensive about messing with the gear timing since the pump I just took off the truck ran so good, just wouldn't start when hot. I don't want to mess it up especially for this unknown pump. If I do go with the rebuilt pump route, would my local Oreilly's pump do the job? They have a BWD reman unit for about 400$. I've read horror stories about Pensacola and some of those guys but I haven't heard hardly anything about chain store pumps.
 

IDIBRONCO

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I wouldn't recommend any pump except for one from Mel, Russ, or R&D. You may get lucky with one from O"Reilly's, but then again maybe not.
 

adamsanders

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Ok thanks I will keep that in mind. In regards to advancing the pump, what's the best method to getting the pump further towards the passenger side. I can only spin it slightly past the static mark before I encounter major resistance. I tried loosening the 4 top high pressure lines on the pump output but still no luck. The IP line from the filter housing is so bound that I'm afraid I'll round the nut off breaking it loose! Would taking the lines loose at the injectors help anything?
 

IDIBRONCO

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I would guess probably not. You're trying to rotate the lines at the pump. Another thing to look at is the injector lines on the passenger's side. They may be touching the intake and keeping the pump from moving in that direction any farther. If that's the case, you could stick a prybar underneath the lines and gently lift up on them. You don't want them to touch anyway. Also if those are touching, then the other side lines are probably bent slightly upward, if you try to bend them, go gently again. This method may not be recommended here, but desperate times...
 

Macrobb

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This is why I skip it a tooth advanced at that point - you effectively 'reset' the travel range, so now you can push it back a bit towards the driver's side to compensate.
You can always skip it back the other way later.
 

adamsanders

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Macrobb, can you outline the procedure to do what you're talking about? What has to be removed, which way to spin the gear, how much. etc.
 

Macrobb

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Macrobb, can you outline the procedure to do what you're talking about? What has to be removed, which way to spin the gear, how much. etc.
Alright, I'll try my best:

1. Remove the inspection cover at the front of the IP gear housing. This will let you see the 3 bolts and stud that hold the IP to the gear.
2. Clean this area really well, getting all the grease off of it.
3. Rotate the engine to a known point - I'd use the timing mark on the crank to rotate it to TDC. It doesn't matter the position, just that you can get back to it of needed.
4. Using a sharpie, mark a line on the housing and face of the IP gear, so you have a reference mark. When we rotate the gear, it will move but the housing marks won't, so you'll be able to see how far you went.
5. Remove all 4 bolts holding the IP gear housing to the block
6. Using a small prybar, lever up on the IP gear housing to break the seal. We need to get it up just enough for the IP gear to clear the cam gear. No more than about 1/2".
7. While holding the gear cover up, try to rotate the IP gear by hand, just a little. You only want it to skip one tooth.
When looking at the front of the engine, the IP gear goes clockwise to advance it(top of IP gear towards driver's side, which is opposite how you would rotate the IP).
8. When you think you've got it(and it might take several tries to get it only one tooth over - you are trying to feel the gears as you have them just out of mesh), tighten down the 4 bolts on the IP gear housing again and fire it up.

If it feels like you went too far, rotate the engine back to the known point(where all your marks line up again) and try adjusting it again. It's not that hard, and you have the reference marks to keep you close. One tooth is going to be perhaps the width of a normal sharpie line at the edge of the cam gear that you see through the insepection cover - you don't have to go far.

If you got it right, it should be a bit clattery when running. It should be noticably too advanced.
You will then loosen the IP bolts and "retard" the IP by rotating it back towards the driver's side a but until you get something that sounds reasonable. Tighten it back up, reinstall the inspection cover, and test it out.

You will then want to play with the timing a bit - try it a bit retarded from where you have it, and a bit advanced. See what 'feels' better.

If you see white/gray smoke on heavy acceleration(vs black), you are too retarded. If it clatters a huge amount, you are too advanced.
You'll also want to make sure to do your timing/power tests once the engine has warmed up and the cold advance has turned off - that advances it another few degrees.

In my opinion, doing this will get you a very reasonable timing job. No, it might not be book-perfect, but it will run well, and get decent fuel mileage and power.
(Typically, where you make the most power in an IDI is also where you get the best fuel economy, because the engine is "fighting itself" less, using less fuel to make the same output)
 

adamsanders

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Macrobb, thanks for the guide, the process went smoothly. Unfortunately, the problem is still there. The engine definitely clattered more and I could get black smoke under load but the truck still has no power and spits and stumbles randomly. At this point I really don't know where to go except buy a new pump. I know I'm taking a chance in not knowing for sure but with the original pump the truck ran great just wouldn't start hot so I'm going on that as indication that the IP is my problem. If there are no other suggestions, I will order one tonight or tomorrow because I am ready for this saga to be over!
 

Macrobb

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Macrobb, thanks for the guide, the process went smoothly. Unfortunately, the problem is still there. The engine definitely clattered more and I could get black smoke under load but the truck still has no power and spits and stumbles randomly. At this point I really don't know where to go except buy a new pump. I know I'm taking a chance in not knowing for sure but with the original pump the truck ran great just wouldn't start hot so I'm going on that as indication that the IP is my problem. If there are no other suggestions, I will order one tonight or tomorrow because I am ready for this saga to be over!

Check for air in the supply. With the engine idling, depress the schraeder valve on the fuel filter and make sure there is no air coming out.
 

bbjordan

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Don't want to sound negative, but you are still guessing at the timing.

Consider this: if your timing was @ 6* BTDC (way retarded) and you advanced it one tooth (~7*) then you are @ 13* BTDC (way advanced).

Even if you get a new IP, you will still have to get it timed. Stop guessing!

Just trying to help. :angel:
 

adamsanders

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bbjordan, from the way I understand it, I am fairly sure the gears are in time (or where until I advanced it). With the crank at TDC on compression stroke of no. 1 cylinder, the bottom bolt on the pump gear was straight down and the dowel pin was at 4 o clock. The top two bolts were parallel to the top of the engine surface. This is definitely in time correct? I know the pump timing itself may be way off but would this cause the truck to run terrible? It barely has enough power to pull itself up hills in 1st gear. It will idle great and all but no power. I put the pump back to the static timing marks and the clatter reduced but it still didn't run very well at all.

Also, I did look at the timing registry and there were no listings anywhere near me. I am near Bristol Motor Speedway (if you're a NASCAR Fan) right on the VA-TN border. If I could just get it to run I would definitely consider getting rental timing kit and giving it a go. But I am still suspect of the pump so I'm afraid I'd be doing it twice.
 
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bbjordan

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The problem is starting to look more like a fuel supply issue. i.e. the IP was swapped, but the problem persists. Putting a fuel pressure gauge on would tell you what is happening.

Low fuel pressure will cause the IP to run retarded. Air intrusion will cause the engine to spit and stumble. This is what Macrobb alluded to in post 24.

Low fuel pressure can be caused by a number of things: plugged fuel filter, weak/bad lift pump, collapsed fuel line (the rubber hose between the lift pump and hard line is notorious for this), etc.

Isn't having an old diesel truck fun? :D
 

IDIBRONCO

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No the problem didn't persist. The first pump ran fine, it just wouldn't start hot. This one doesn't run well at all.
 

OLDBULL8

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Forget about the hot starting.
The 1st IP ran well, the 2nd IP gave you all kinds of trouble.

You rotated the engine to bring the dowel slot to 4 O'clock, now you don;t know if it's at exhaust or compression on #1 cyl. #1 and #4 are both at TDC at the same time, could be 180* out of time, #4 would fire instead of #1, engine would run, but very rough.

Now your really messing up the timing by moving the IP gear since the engine ran fine with #1 IP.

You inquired about fuel level in tank, it should be at least a 1/2 tank before messing with IP or fuel system, that eliminates air intrusion from low tank fuel.

Removing the IP, you have to remove the filter to IP hard line, the line sleeves (5/16") should be be changed, air intrusion is very common at those two points, hardened sleeves are very difficult to seal.

I would recommend re-installing #1 IP to see how it runs cold and hot, before investing in another IP. Then go from there.
 
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