2004 F350 questions

Knuckledragger

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I have the opportunity to buy a truck for $3000, the catch is that the engine is broke (no current details). Good trans and body, dually. I am familiar with IDI, but not powerstroke and electric controls.

Is the 6.0 worth rebuilding?
Turbo rebuild costs?
Known electric issues?

A few friends think little of the 6.0 and 6.4 engines, I would like info from users.
Thanks!
 

KansasIDI

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I have the opportunity to buy a truck for $3000, the catch is that the engine is broke (no current details). Good trans and body, dually. I am familiar with IDI, but not powerstroke and electric controls.

Is the 6.0 worth rebuilding?
Turbo rebuild costs?
Known electric issues?

A few friends think little of the 6.0 and 6.4 engines, I would like info from users.
Thanks!
I personally don’t have a whole lot against them, but I do know they are incredibly expensive to do properly. A good and proper bulletproof/rebuild might cost you 20k. Probably somewhere in that neighborhood.

Turbo itself might not be too high, couple grand at most for an upgraded unit

FICM is what comes to mind when I think of 6.0 electrical issues. Not crazy common but might out to replace that if you replace everything else injection system related.

Using Motorcraft parts where you can is definitely the way to go on a 6.0

If you rebuild the engine, damn sure replace the injectors and HPOP. With Ford/Motorcraft parts.


I might not have all this exactly right, as I don’t own a 6.0, but some friends of mine do, and so I have been around them some.

There’s definitely other people here and outside of this forum that are much more knowledgeable about these 6.0s than myself.

@snicklas
 

Rdnck84_03

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6.0 is definitely expensive to work on. When bulletproofed they are very good engines though.

The 6.0 has gotten a bad rep for injector issues, there is nothing wrong with the injectors themselves though. The problem is the ultra low sulphur diesel, they were designed before the switch. Lack of lubrication in ULSD causes scoring in the injector which leads to premature failure.

Running a sulphur substitute, or other form of lubrication enhancer helps tremendously with this issue. I add 2 stroke oil to the diesel at every fillup in mine.

James
 

snicklas

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Yes, the 6.0 got a bad rap, but it is actually a fairly decent engine. I’ve owned mine for just over 17 years. My 6.0 is what brought me to work this morning.

“Broke” can be a lot of things. There are some “fairly” inexpensive things that can make a 6.0 not run.

First, and easiest check, is oil level. Any HEUI injection system (7.3PSD/T444e, 6.0PSD/VT365, some CAT engines) if the crankcase is too low (not empty) the injectors will not fire, as there isn’t enough oil to run them. Kind of an accidental safety feature, as the engine will quit running if you start loosing oil, before it’s low enough to cause damage.

If a FICM has failed, that will cause a hard / no start. Mine failed long ago, and I had it repaired for a couple hundred bucks. Most times, what kills the FICM (Fuel Injector Control Module) is voltage issues, like bad batteries or alternator. It takes the 12 volts and bumps it up to 48 volts to run the injectors, low voltage supply to them will damage them.

ICP sensor (Injection Control Pressure) that tells the computer what the high pressure oil pressure is. These engine use a HPOP (High Pressure Oil Pump) that takes crankcase oil, and pressurizes it from a minimum 500 PSI at startup (ECM will not fire the injectors if it sees less that 500PSI) to over 4000PSI at a WOT hard run.

Injectors can fail, but with they don’t all have to replaced at the same time.. One fails, pull the rocker cover and swap that one out. I’ve heard to make sure to use only Motorcraft Injectors (there are some good aftermarket out there, just do your research). Last time I checked, Motorcraft Injectors from my local Ford dealer were less than $250 (plus core). I have 188k on mine, and it has all 8 factory injectors, and HPOP. The big thing I’ve always heard is the 6.0 injectors are so much more expensive that IDI ones. Which, yes, the individual injector is. But when you have to do a Pump and all 8 injectors, well you’re not to far off from 8 6.0 injectors.

I’ve heard of lifer issues in the early ones, but not too common.

Head Gaskets, well it’s a high compression, boosted diesel, so they and go.

The turbo shouldn’t be crazy to rebuild / replace. It is a VGT that has veins in it. Most common issue with the turbo is the veins sticking because of the engine being babied. I make sure that every week or so, I give it a spirited on ramp run. Or the times I pull a heavier trailer, I do the same. Normally the 1st good run with a load behind it, it will haze just a little. Keeping in mind, mine DOES NOT SMOKE at all. If it did, it would be broken and I would fix it.

So it could be a simple fix, or could need a rebuild. If you have to do a full rebuild, get good parts, and it will run strong for a long time. Again, mine is the 03 in my sig, in an 8000lb plus Excursion. I’ve done routine maintenance (oil at 5k, fuel filters at 10k). Run good oil and Motorcraft filters. I had to replace the water pump, the EGR feed tube had a leak and that all “fell off” when I fixed it, alternators (yes multiple) and batteries. Everything else is what was put on/in the engine over on Brookville Road here in Indianapolis in 2003.

There were growing pains with them at first, injectors failing and others issues. So that was one of the dents in their reputation.

The big one was blowing head gaskets. But where a lot of that came from was in the difference between the 7.3 and 6.0 factory tuning. The 7.3 was sold at ~235 horse, factory. This was a conservative power level, for longevity. If I remember correctly, the T444E in the IH stuff was at 185hp factory (sound familiar). At these power levels, they would be very reliable and “run forever”. Owners would put a tuner and bump them up 50-100hp, which was still within the design limits, but was “pushing” them more. The 6.0 was sold at 325hp, where as the VT365 was sold at ~235hp). This was already pushing the 6.0 variant, way closer to the max it would take (The VT365 didn’t have anywhere near the head gasket issues). Then someone would put a 50-100hp+ tune on them and blow the heads off of them. If IH had put an additional head bolt per cylinder, like the 7.3 had, it would have been better. So the “these things are junk because they blow head gasket” should have been “I broke it because I put too high of a tune in it”

As I said earlier, mine is 100 stock and almost 100% complete original except for a couple failed parts. On thing that has helped that is mine has never had a tuner on it. It has done everything I’ve asked of it. To the point, for those that have been here for a long time, if you remember ARGVE (Travis - Enterprise and the Nanny Goat) there are old threads on his adventures. The 1st time he drove mine said there is no reason to turn this one up, it has enough power as it is… and I agree.

I wouldn’t shy away from a 6.0, but know going in, which I know is why you are asking questions, that is could be a simple fix, or it could be a 100% rebuild. But if the condition of the rest of the truck is good, and lets say, worst case, it does cost you that 20k mentioned above, you are at $23,000 for a truck. Which in todays truck market isn’t too bad. Plus it is the last engine model that did not have any aftertreatment on it for the exhaust. It does have a passive cat on it, but it just hangs there. I’ve gotten 21MPG on a long trip with just the truck, and would get 15-16 towing my 5000lb TT. So go in with your eyes open, see if you can get a better idea of what “broken” is, and go from there.

One thing that I have heard, is if you think a 6.0 is bad, get a 6.4, you will want your 6.0 back. Big thing is, the issues the 6.0 can have, can be fixed, and not be an issue anymore. The 6.4 you just replace what is broken and wait for it to break again. The 6.0 was used from 2003 - 2007 in the F-Series trucks (and in the E-Series vans until the diesel ws discontinued in them, maybe when the transit came out). The 6.4 was used for 3 years 08-10 and then replaced with the 6.7.
 

u2slow

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The 7.3PSD was enough to sour me, and indulge in the Cummins 6BT thereafter. Zero interest in the newer powerstrokes.
 

XOLATEM

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I have a buddy that has a 2003 dually...he has had it probably around 15 years...

This is the same one that I had to fab up and lower the radiator mounts when he bought the 'right' radiator for it and tried to put it in and the hood would not close. (story somewhere here...)

One day, early in his 6.0 experience he called me and said he needed a tow...

He was stuck at a stoplight on a semi-major highway a few miles away...

@Cant Write will love this....I brought out an old chevy truck that had a 350 and a 700R4 with a 3.42 rear and a tow ROPE...

Hooked onto the dead 6.0 and tugged it about 13 miles...TFC in neutral...

Turns out the crank-driven oil pump broke...(that'll stop you dead in your tracks...)

He found a good used engine in WVA and took a VW Rabbit (Diesel) and a 4x8 trailer over the mountains and got it, shaped it up and ran that for a good while...don't know what he did after that...hafta ask him next time I talk with him.

He and I went to Charlotte N.C. with that thing to bring back a camaro for a guy that wanted a semi-restoration on the engine and driveline...got fairly good fuel mileage...I believe it was about six hours each way...

So...in my opinion...if you want/can spend some money on getting the thing in order initially...go for it...be prepared to dig deep for a while until you get it sorted out...just like @snicklas so graciously informed you...

No matter what you get it is going to cost...time, money, divorce, kids hating you...bankers smiling at you while rubbing their mitts together...etc....salesmen treating you like a rock star for a short while until you sign....just depends on what you feel like working for...

Just my .02

P.S. try checking the oil pressure from the crank-driven pump...you might get lucky...
 

bismic1

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If you are going to buy/drive a 6.0L, then you really need a good scan toll that can give you some engine vitals (PID information to watch periodically when driving). ScanGauge makes a couple of good ones, but they are not the best if you really want to dive into troubleshooting a 6.0L. For that you really need FORScan.

In fact, you should have a good scan tool when going to buy a used 6.0L, and learn what to look for before you buy. There is a good link on this at the end of this post on buying a good used 6.0L.

The thing about buying a 6.0L is that they are old, and what you buy may have been abused. Abusing them can involve running them with poor cooling and excessive heat, which can do quite a bit of expensive damage.

If you are renovating a 6.0L, make sure you know the health of the oil cooler before taking off parts and replacing them (if this is possible). I am ok with the OEM oil cooler ASSUMING the coolant has been changed to an EC-1 rated ELC coolant AND the differential temperatures between the oil and coolant are within proper limits to begin with.

If you want to splurge, the external oil cooler system from BulletProof Diesel is fantastic - just expensive.

The '04.5 model years and up had weak EGR coolers - period. You need to remove the OEM one and install one from BulletProofDiesel.

FICMs can fail and then they can be repaired AND upgraded. If buying a used 6.0L, add to the price (in your mind) $400 or so for a FICM rebuild by FICMRepair.com or CircuitBoard Medics. As stated above, low system voltage can ruin the FICM power board, but it can ALSO ruin the FICM logic board (and a logic board failure is not easy to detect (ie will not be definitively identified by ANY PCM PIDs or the buzz test). Having a known good spare FICM isn't a bad idea.

The 03 and 04 HPOPs (all of them) are a weak design. Do not go back in with an OEM one. Get one from Dieselsite or CNCFab.

The 04.5 model years went to a different oil rail system (high pressure oil system feeding the injectors). Especially when exposed to heat, you can get leaks. I would recommend the Dieselsite standpipes and dummy plugs for these model years (and newer). These use Viton for the o-rings and at best the OEM ones use HNBR (not as heat tolerant).

Excess heat can cause heads to warp and even crack. Machining heads is risky because they already are structurally on the edge (especially from inadequate number of bolts). There is a minimum thickness spec for the head. There are also a lot of junk heads on the market. I prefer the KillDevil Diesel heads (steel OR aluminum).

The block deck needs to be flat also for heads to seal. The surface finish on the block deck and heads is critical also. There are specs on this.

I like FelPro head gaskets, but they may not be compatible with the o-ring work that some shops do on 6.0L heads (ie where the shop physically locates the o-ring may not match the FelPro gaskets design). OEM head gaskets are generally pretty good as an alternative.

The fuel pump pressure regulators from the factory were weak, and low fuel pressure was found to be a major cause of injector failure (injectors are expensive). Ford/International came out with a reasonable priced upgraded spring.

My 2006 is still running very well, and on the original injectors (almost 250k miles)! I do use a fuel additive about half the time. I can not say if it is responsible in any big way to my injector longevity. I just add it when it is handy and I remember it.

Filtration is important to these engines (fuel and oil). Do yourself a BIG favor and stick with OEM fuel and oil filters. This also means you need an OEM oil filter cap. Some people by aftermarket combo cap-and-oil-filter and then ignore the "Do Not Reuse" labeling on the cap and throw a different oil filter in it. This can result in the inadequate closing of the oil filter housing drain valve. This can starve the high pressure oil system AND can also reduce the flow of lubricating oil.

Other fuel system issues encountered over the years:
1. If a cab and chassis design, the fuel tanks were coated internally. Over time these coatings failed, peeled off, and plugged the fuel filters and system. Remember what I said about low fuel pressure!
2. The fuel tank pickup tube is plastic and degrades over time. This can create plastic bits to plug up things and can cause fuel not to be drawn up the tube when the fuel tank gets to about 1/4 level. Remember what I said about low fuel pressure. I installed a sump after my pickup tube failed. Remember what I said about low fuel pressure!
3. The fuel pump has a relay that is integrally soldered onto the Central Junction Box board. It likes to fail. It is not a DIT repair (unless you are well versed in circuit board repair techniques). Send to CircuitBoardMedics. Remember what I said about low fuel pressure.

Lots of cheap (poorly remanufactured) 6.0L injectors on the market! I would not buy remanufactured injectors from anyone other than FullForceDiesel, or CNCFab. CNCFab sells completely new 6.0L injectors also. They MUST be made by Pure Power (the OEM company formed to manufacture the 6.0L injectors in the first place). Alliant has an agreement with Pure Power to market them. Stay away from places like Pensecola Fuel Injection, Sinister, and even Warren Diesel (WDI) has had more problems that I would accept - although they (Warren) do have good customer service.

The control modules (especially the FICM) like good voltage - make sure the batteries and alternator(s) are in good health. Also, makes sure all cables and wiring, and terminals (including the grounds) are in good shape and solidly attached (with no rust).

My transmission is still original and has had no issues. I change the fluid and external filter every 30k miles. In fact, my fluid change process is a series of 4 drains and re-fills (with enough driving in between to fully mic the old and new fluid). One thing to remember is that it is impossible to fully drain the 6.0L fluid reservoirs. They will always retain a significant amount of the old fluid after a drain.

Draining the oil will get 14/15 quarts out of a system that holds 18 quarts. There will always be a residual of the old fluid left in the system. Draining the transmission fluid will get 8 quarts out of a system that holds about 17 quarts. Draining the coolant will get about 13/14 quarts out of a system that holds 27.5 quarts!

Oh - and VERY important to use the correct transmission fluid!

The 6.0L can be a really good engine platform, they just have quite a few "special needs". And you would be way better off starting with a good one:

 
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