Well this is normal.

XOLATEM

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Come to think of it...he had to weld up...in the overhead position...that is one of the harder configurations to weld successfully. you gotta have your game on good to make it work. Too easy to have metal just drop out of the work and have to build it back up. I used a cheap flashlight to see where I was and where I was going with the rod when I had to weld overhead.
 

Rdnck84_03

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Hopefully I never have a reason to try this. But if I ever need to attempt it, I would probably weld it with nickel rod. I would probably try to weld it through the starter hole with 3/8" long welds in 8 places.

James
 

KansasIDI

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Just curious about what works in this situation...what did you use to weld it..? Mig or stick..? if mig...what kind of welder and wire and the settings you needed to make it hold.

If stick...ac or dc and which rod and what settings did you use.

I am just gathering data in case I have the same trouble.
Miller 252 MIG welder set to 26.0 V and 550 wire speed. 1/2” every quarter of the flywheel. Welded on back side, clamped down with vice grips for each weld. I used standard copper wire
 

KansasIDI

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this is a great example of asking a question that someone else wants to ask but doesn't for some reason. I'm guessing it was stick, but I don't know anything about stick welding.
I would have used a stick welder, but I didn’t have any nickel core rod. The reason to use nickel is that it will not stress welding the steel to cast iron. Copper wire will not stress either, but nickel rod would have been better. As long as it is clean, all will be fine.

I weld for a living, pretty much. Build feedlots, and livestock equipment. But I like to do the specialty type stuff too, like for repairs. Welding and concrete are what we do most.
 

XOLATEM

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Thank you Kansas IDI...much obliged. I can follow the why and how.

I imagine that the wire speed was necessary because the flywheel is such a massive heat sink that it would just suck up the filler.

I always appreciate when someone is generous with their talent and experience.

I did my share when I had a shop and taught a lot of people about auto and truck mechanics. A number of them thanked me years later.

It all goes around...
 

rreegg

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have never welded stainless or cast iron but have read 309 rod Can be used for cast and that it contains some nickel. Anyone know?

And actually welded truly overhead for the first time a few days ago with 6011 and it wasn’t too bad, on my back something to the bumper of the idi. Didn’t have any issues really but did feel it was easier to get burned..

Glad to hear it worked out @KansasIDI wssnt familiar with copper wire either but I only use stick
 

KansasIDI

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One thing I have noticed is the starter noise gas changed drastically. I got a new starter, and after welding the ring gear the background whine these IDIs make while cranking, is gone! It now sounds something like a 6.7 when cranking. Of course, it cranks longer than a 6.7 but the sound reminds me of one.
 

KansasIDI

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@ISPKI
You seem to be the local expert on metallurgy, what are your thoughts? You know more about it than I do.
 

ISPKI

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Lotta thoughts at play here.

Heating up the ring gear could certainly be done by hand but youd have to be pretty darn savvy at it to get it right without ruining the heat treat, thats assuming the parts are even heat treated. They may not be, depending on the alloys. The temperature to hit to influence dimensions can vary considerably depending on the alloys as well, same as the tempering temperature. I work with alloys all day long that temper at 800+ while others temper at 300. As long as you arent exceeding the tempering value by a considerable amount, the strength values of the metal shouldnt change by any drastic amount, the trick is knowing when youre there cuz you dont have the time to take a dimension before it cools back down.

We weld some heat sensitive metals that require being preheated to 700+ immediately before welding but are too thin to move from oven to bench and cant be placed in vermiculite to slow cooling due to purity levels so we weld them on a copper table heated from underneath to 750 degrees. Makes for a hot day of welding for sure.

I dont know that the ring gear is made of cast iron, kinda seems like it shouldnt be but its difficult to say since most any steel can be "cast" and not all castings are created equal, or even similar.

ER309, 309L, 309 ss is pretty similar to most other austinitic stainless welding rods. I dont actually think anything makes it unique for welding carbon to stainless, its just a run of the mill austinitic - 12-14% nickel, 22-25% chromium, some molybdenum, very low carbon content, decent levels of silicon and manganese certainly help but the nickel content is the usual suspect for bridging extremely dissimilar metals and 12-14% isnt that significant.

There are plenty of other welding rods that would perform just as well if not better for bridging carbon steel to iron. 312SS is one that I use ALOT for hard to weld crack sensitive alloys and dissimilar metals and should do a better job but its going to cost alot more, Inco 625 same situation, crazy high nickel and $$$. Actually, 410SS and even 4130 uncoated should also bridge carbon to iron fairly well but again those are going to cost more $$$. I just ordered a 10lbs bundle of 312SS from Lancaster and it comes in 275$/lbs.

I think I have a spare flex plate and ring gear, maybe i'll lop a piece off of it and run it through the XRF gun to see what its really made out of officially. Might give us more insight on what we are dealing with and how to go about fixing these.
 

Jesus Freak

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Lotta thoughts at play here.

Heating up the ring gear could certainly be done by hand but youd have to be pretty darn savvy at it to get it right without ruining the heat treat, thats assuming the parts are even heat treated. They may not be, depending on the alloys. The temperature to hit to influence dimensions can vary considerably depending on the alloys as well, same as the tempering temperature. I work with alloys all day long that temper at 800+ while others temper at 300. As long as you arent exceeding the tempering value by a considerable amount, the strength values of the metal shouldnt change by any drastic amount, the trick is knowing when youre there cuz you dont have the time to take a dimension before it cools back down.

We weld some heat sensitive metals that require being preheated to 700+ immediately before welding but are too thin to move from oven to bench and cant be placed in vermiculite to slow cooling due to purity levels so we weld them on a copper table heated from underneath to 750 degrees. Makes for a hot day of welding for sure.

I dont know that the ring gear is made of cast iron, kinda seems like it shouldnt be but its difficult to say since most any steel can be "cast" and not all castings are created equal, or even similar.

ER309, 309L, 309 ss is pretty similar to most other austinitic stainless welding rods. I dont actually think anything makes it unique for welding carbon to stainless, its just a run of the mill austinitic - 12-14% nickel, 22-25% chromium, some molybdenum, very low carbon content, decent levels of silicon and manganese certainly help but the nickel content is the usual suspect for bridging extremely dissimilar metals and 12-14% isnt that significant.

There are plenty of other welding rods that would perform just as well if not better for bridging carbon steel to iron. 312SS is one that I use ALOT for hard to weld crack sensitive alloys and dissimilar metals and should do a better job but its going to cost alot more, Inco 625 same situation, crazy high nickel and $$$. Actually, 410SS and even 4130 uncoated should also bridge carbon to iron fairly well but again those are going to cost more $$$. I just ordered a 10lbs bundle of 312SS from Lancaster and it comes in 275$/lbs.

I think I have a spare flex plate and ring gear, maybe i'll lop a piece off of it and run it through the XRF gun to see what its really made out of officially. Might give us more insight on what we are dealing with and how to go about fixing these.
I gave it "the like", but I would have given it the "what the heck did he just say" if there was one.
 

XOLATEM

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Man Alive...!!! I gotta give that one a 'Hell, yeah...!!! I followed along pretty good on it and it sure beats having to listen to garden-variety gossip in a shop, family get-together, or anything on the radio or T.V....

That was better than anything you can read (or buy..) at the exotic book store...

On ring gears...

Couple thoughts...My tinpot armchair expert theory on the cranking sound change is a slight shrinkage in dimension...changing the place the pinion gear pushes on the ring gear...feel free to throw out any other reason for the pitch change...

Also...if you are going to test the composition of the ring gear metal...I will bet that the alloy has to meet a certain minimum spec, but can vary slightly depending on who actually manufactured it.... which can change from year to year and vendor to vendor.

Remember if you are attempting to weld one to the flywheel...oil and other contaminants are going to be in the pores of the iron...which is going to complicate things.

As far as manufacturing method...I said before that I would bet that they are rolled out flat and bent and joined around a mandrel and welded robotically and then de-burred.

If you roll it out cold...then that tends to compress the outer surface and heat treating may not be necessary...but the metal is going to have a stress yield point when heated...just don't know what temp.

My opinion on heating them up with a torch...I don't like it and have never done it...I used an oven...but yes...people do it all the time and seem to get away with it...if they are savvy enough to be gentle with the metal and not heat it up too much in one spot.

Sometimes I enjoy reading stuff on this site so much I forget to eat...

Darn Y'all...
 

XOLATEM

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Welded on back side, clamped down with vice grips for each weld.
I hate to tell you...but I think that the amount of time this thing holds together is going to depend on whether you used genuine Peterson, Irwin, or some other 'authorized' vise-grip pliers...

If you have any knock-offs...well, I hope they did not come near your truck...have you heard of transplant rejection..? Same phenomena can apply...
 

KansasIDI

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I hate to tell you...but I think that the amount of time this thing holds together is going to depend on whether you used genuine Peterson, Irwin, or some other 'authorized' vise-grip pliers...

If you have any knock-offs...well, I hope they did not come near your truck...have you heard of transplant rejection..? Same phenomena can apply...
I used Irwin vice grips
 

ISPKI

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I took a cut out of the flex plate that I had left over from my previous truck's E4OD to ZF5 conversion and ran it thru my XRF gun to test metal alloys. Keep in mind that I dont know how well controlled flexplates are between manufacturers and I do not know if this was an OEM or replacement flexplate. Sample has a section of flexplate body, a section of weld, and a section of the ring gear. Once side was ground clean and then wiped with acetone to eliminate contaminants.

I took one 30 second test on each of the 3 components (1 on flex plate, 1 on gear, 1 on weld). Heres what the gun showed;

Flex plate and ring gear are identical alloys of 1075 carbon steel. This is commonly used for low strength spring steel as opposed to 1095 which is used for higher strength spring steel. 1075 is used because it can be more easily machined, stamped, formed, and welded (with a good pre and post heat treat and slow cooled) than 1095.

The test in the weld pool is more difficult to pin point as it coalesces some of the members being welded throughout the pool (all 3 metals mix together) therefore forming a sort of combination of the different materials, effectively a completely different alloy than each member.

The weld came up as a lowish carbon steel with traces of standard mig wire elements (moly, manganese, silicon, etc). Carbon content was .210 which suggests it was probably ER70s6 weld wire out of a mig gun. Standard generic stuff.

It doesnt look like the ring gear was cast at all. Might be more likely that these are cut from a thick walled tube or pipe either before or after machining the teeth into them. They could also be cut from a pipe, welded to the flex plate, and then the gear teeth cut into them after to ensure a superior fit and tolerance.
 

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