Self oil burning

1mouse3

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300WHP+ goal is set to kill and is like if you were riding a time bomb you will have to always be very carefull and pay very close attention and be prepared everytime you drive it to have to have it towed home and start from scratch with almost a total loss been there done this several times and trust me it hurts financially and physically did I forget mentally but is the facts your forcing the motor way outside of design and sounds as if are planning to drive it like you stole it lol yet want daily driver reliability so many factors need taken into account your wanting highway speed driveability yet race car acceleration / power and keep the 4 speed and your wanting instant spool on turbo along with daily driver reliability.

I will take your advice and not find reason for more fuel than a maxed stock pump could give. The f100 is the toy and dont need two, so should not find reason to get the acceleration of it. Have found driving with the na 6.9, that the lack of power is a bit much. With a ton or two in the bed, it would take too long to get to speed on the highway. This is why never went about matching the rear ratio to the front, so been in a state of debate of which i want. I would rather not change the ratio in the front, since would also have to add in cost of a case spreader. It would be more costly to change both to 3.75.
 

1mouse3

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@IDIoit for your mancharo, would you have the egt to share of ballpark its in at around the 2000-2500 range with the twin t04e.
 

1mouse3

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or transmission I understand your like of the 4 speed its a good trans the issue is not really that the trans is a bad choice its the amount of load your wanting to force the motor to fight against all the time in short 3.55 gears and 35 inch tires is alot of load its doable and has been done alot. I just find your RPM's will climb so slow that your going to make your engine fight itself I think 3.73 gears myself is a better ratio but then you sacrifice your highway gearing. I like the ZF5 for the bigblock gassers to be best just need to drill them to fit our motors and to be honest ZF5 transmissions are not to bad again we are talking diesel motor not gasser you need to remember shifting it like you do your gasser will kill your diesel doing it like you do your gasser turned up as far as your want will scatter your motor across a highway somewhere in seconds.


This is the spread I have now to work with, this has me hammer down on the highway.

Code:
close t19, 35in and 4.10
rpm    1500     2200    2800
1      9        14      17
2      16       23      29
3      27       39      50
4      38       55      70


This be just changing to 3.55, dose not get me far out the throttle but is more useable.

Code:
close t19, 35in and 3.55
rpm    1500    2200    2500
1      11      16      18
2      18      26      30
3      31      45      51
4      44      64      73


Going to the zf5 off a 460 would give a spread where I could treat her nicer.

Code:
wide zf5, 35in and 3.75
rpm    1500    2200   2400
1      7       11     12
2      14      21     22
3      26      38     41
4      41      60     66
5      54      79     87


Now for the gasser that is driven like stollen...

Code:
close t19, 28in and 3.75
rpm       2000    3000    4000
1         12      18      23
2         19      29      39
3         33      50      67
4         47      70      94

I have driven a duramax with a zf6 and many gasser trucks with a overdrive trans. Out all those, they all shiffted about the same and did not like it. They where sloppy with minimal feed back to what gear I was in, I would be unshure of gear choice from time to time do to that. I would rather bang a gear and know %100 I chose right, a sloppy one has me going in and out a gear a few to see if chose right. This why I like the t19, the e36 I have has a underdrive ZF 320z that is the same positive feed back. In turn this keep me wanting to stay with a underdrive, say a fuller 6 speed keeps crossing my mind. My thought to get the positive fell I seek would be to get a short throw shifter for the zf5, if was to find one. One off a 460 would be a lot easer to in the juck yard, so may way that option. The ratio spread from one those wide zf5 would be such that I would not in the throttle aggressively.
 
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CBRF3

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This is the spread I have now to work with, this has me hammer down on the highway.

Code:
close t19, 35in and 4.10
rpm    1500     2200    2800
1      9        14      17
2      16       23      29
3      27       39      50
4      38       55      70


This be just changing to 3.55, dose not get me far out the throttle but is more useable.

Code:
close t19, 35in and 3.55
rpm    1500    2200    2500
1      11      16      18
2      18      26      30
3      31      45      51
4      44      64      73


Going to the zf5 off a 460 would give a spread where I could treat her nicer.

Code:
wide zf5, 35in and 3.75
rpm    1500    2200   2400
1      7       11     12
2      14      21     22
3      26      38     41
4      41      60     66
5      54      79     87


Now for the gasser that is driven like stollen...

Code:
close t19, 28in and 3.75
rpm       2000    3000    4000
1         12      18      23
2         19      29      39
3         33      50      67
4         47      70      94

I have driven a duramax with a zf6 and many gasser trucks with a overdrive trans. Out all those, they all shiffted about the same and did not like it. They where sloppy with minimal feed back to what gear I was in, I would be unshure of gear choice from time to time do to that. I would rather bang a gear and know %100 I chose right, a sloppy one has me going in and out a gear a few to see if chose right. This why I like the t19, the e36 I have has a underdrive ZF 320z that is the same positive feed back. In turn this keep me wanting to stay with a underdrive, say a fuller 6 speed keeps crossing my mind. My thought to get the positive fell I seek would be to get a short throw shifter for the zf5, if was to find one. One off a 460 would be a lot easer to in the juck yard, so may way that option. The ratio spread from one those wide zf5 would be such that I would not in the throttle aggressively.
Glad you could see the reasoning I advised the ZF5 for the 460 big block drilled to fit ours I love it with mine and the fact reverse is actually usable unlike the diesel ZF5 trans I like the spread up top allows for better control in upper gears and the lower gears remain closer together so you can crawl around when want to easier all in all with a good turbo combo and decent power 250whp is very good and with the high amount of torgue its night and day vs N/A so your comparison to the N/A 6.9 being a dog is out window I am only trying to give you the best advice I can out of my past experience and such. I am also trying to urge you to keep it simple for reliability and not trying to advise you to go set to kill it dont take alot of power honestly to get things done and done at a acceptable speed LOL.

did you notice with the 460 ZF5 3.73 gears your setting at a very good power rpm for both HP and torque at nearly 80mph in 5th and 4th is at 60mph all around your in sweet spot for literally any cruising speed for standard highway use 4th for interstate use 5th as I said this combo is one of my favorite combinations all arounder wise.
 
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CBRF3

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I will take your advice and not find reason for more fuel than a maxed stock pump could give. The f100 is the toy and dont need two, so should not find reason to get the acceleration of it. Have found driving with the na 6.9, that the lack of power is a bit much. With a ton or two in the bed, it would take too long to get to speed on the highway. This is why never went about matching the rear ratio to the front, so been in a state of debate of which i want. I would rather not change the ratio in the front, since would also have to add in cost of a case spreader. It would be more costly to change both to 3.75.
no you mis understould a above stock turned up pump will be needed to drive 2 turbos a stocker turned up wont offer enough fuel but as I said its a fine line I think the 90cc-110cc will be needed to get you to around the 250WHP range out of experience and a maxed stocker will not get you past around 190-200 WHP
 

1mouse3

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did you notice with the 460 ZF5 3.73 gears your setting at a very good power rpm for both HP and torque at nearly 80mph in 5th and 4th is at 60mph all around your in sweet spot for literally any cruising speed for standard highway use 4th for interstate use 5th as I said this combo is one of my favorite combinations all arounder wise.

Yes that seemed good to be light on the throttle, this how I shift in that state. This warmmer or cooler on how I should shifting the diesel?

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

N/A 6.9 being a dog

I dont necessarily see it as a dog, that would be one that poutes when asked to do something. More see it needs aid in many gear to get to speed.

no you mis understould a above stock turned up pump will be needed to drive 2 turbos a stocker turned up wont offer enough fuel but as I said its a fine line I think the 90cc-110cc will be needed to get you to around the 250WHP range out of experience and a maxed stocker will not get you past around 190-200 WHP

What would be accomplished by following this guide?

As for fuel, saw this from @Thewespaul as a guide of how to max out the stock pump for now.

db2 tunning
 

1mouse3

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PLZ understand your playing in a dangerous sand box with those goals and well your rolling almost loaded dice

Thanks for letting me know I grabed loaded dice but cant grab another set, need to run with what I have. Going to have to try weighing a few random high numbers in my favor. The bed has been made and cant change the parts I have, going to run with what is on the table.

I have been there and done this with HX40 / HX50 and many other turbos HX40 flow rate is a bit overkill for our motors full tilt with all the fuel we would ever want to give them safely remember a good HX35 is like 40%-60% more CFM flow than the stock turbos designed for our motors and a good stock upgrade is the T04Z turbos for the stock turbo and flows substantially more than stock and is still much lower than the single HX35 so PLZ think this thru if you expect to drive this truck vs melt the pistons before the turbo's even lights off ( aka why dual HX35's I believe is a very bad idea ) which is a big issue with our motors honestly.


I appreciate your sentiment to go a simpler route, that kit from r&d is nice and all...

From experiance the turbo on a duramax or powerstroke is hard to service and would think the same on the idi. There becomes frozzen bolts in precarious place that have you making precarious shapes to get to them. So chose the trade off to get ease of service, yes that means complexity but can live with it. Yes I am the odd ball that will say a complex e36 with a i6 is easy to service, the vanos is time consuming to service but is not hard for example. Past me had grander plans and sought to kill the 6.9, but it killed its self instead. So have one hx35 in the parts bin already, the matching one was never bought. The data I found to weigh for what is needed for this to be useable led me to get the 10cm housing, got two match billet comp wheels as well. This will be what is to be ran first, that will be the experiament to give needed variables for adjustments. Do have one 12cm housing and will only need another if am to try them.

There is a very fine line we have to balance with our motors to keep them reliable and daily driver functional general accepted safe is 250-275 ish HP and 550-575 ftlb


I have to salvage the situation and get another engine running, dose not help no cheap running engine exsist. So since have to spend money on a rebuild I should not put it at risk, so 250 will be the set limit or what 20 psi boost gives. Money dose not grow on trees, so should use it efficently and go for reliability. Thnaks for letting me know of variables Im missing, did not realise I was about to head through the swamp.


as for turbo housings 12cm should spool around the 1200rpm-1400rpm happy spot and be good till around 2200rpm-2400rpm 14cm housing will light off around the 1400rpm-1600rpm area and be good upto around 2400rpm-2600rpm our torque peaks around 1400rpm-1600rpm HP peaks around 2600rpm-2800rpm

Not sure on this since @IDIoit was seening 8psi at 3500rpm with twin .81 turbine houseing on a tp38, so a equivalent to a hx40 with a 14cm housing. Ether way there is that which can be put on the table as a variable, unsure if is helpfull and maybe he will chime in on egts for more. Based on what you say that would put the 10cm at 1000rpm-1200rpm happy spot and be good till around 2000rpm-2200rpm. So what is to say how it will act from 2200rpm to 2500rpm and would a billet wheel open up the window of opperation some?

Edit: So in that data plot you gave for the hx35, dose this data plot closely relate to your calculations?
hx40 14cm should spool around the 2400rpm-2600 to 3400rpm-3600rpm ranage

no go on the TP38's been there. done that. peeked 8 psi at 3500 rpms. even with .81 exhaust housings.
i did buy a couple T04e's and i saw a max of 25 psi on a stock turbo calibrated pump, turned up 2-3 flats.
but the bearings/oil seals shat the bed quick.

bought another set of t04e's and sent them to a buddy and he reworked them, they have been great.
i still havnt bought a hot IP for this rig, yet.



eavily choked exhaust above 1800rpm with crazy high EGT's causing this setup to hardly be driveable


I have external wastegates with a 20 psi spring I can run, what effect would that have. If the wastegate is set bellow peak fueling, would I not be dumping the extra heat past the turbo?

Random cheap 38mm input/ 35mm output wastgates that claimed 10/20/30 psi, is what I got and dont know if right size. This one peaked my interest with its inconel seat and valve.

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cool sounding truck

What about scratching the itch of what true dual 3in with glass packs would sound like?
:sly
 
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1mouse3

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We also got to keep in mind as we up the fuel we put alot more heat / stress on the flame cups in our heads often causing them to crack and sometimes even worse fragment and again this is why the reliable power limit is so low on our motors you have to weigh the pros / cons and cost.

Thanks for trying to let me know I missed a variable in the problem that would cause failer, sorry for my hard head that takes a bit to drive the nailes in so notes can be posted. Went back to weigh a note I made of something interesting...

Will optimizer 6500 heads fit on a 6.2L diesel?

I have an 82 k30 with a 6.2 diesel. I was wondering if the optimizer heads would fit on a 6.2? I am planning to shave off the piston tops to achieve 17:1 compression, and then install an hx35 turbo. After 38 yrs of pretty hard use, the heads on this truck have never had a problem, but I doubt... www.thetruckstop.us


Rockabillyrat said:
I would be hesitant to do any machine work on IDI pistons. The relationship between the precup and piston is responsible for proper combustion due to the dual swirl it creates in the main combustion chamber. If you change the design of the piston bowls or deck the piston you might negatively affect the combustion process. When GM dropped compression to 20.5:1 they accomplished that by increasing the volume of the piston bowls.

A guy installed a piston backwards in a 7.3 IDI build years ago. He quickly caught it and after pulling the head back off you could see the large amount of soot concentrated on the backwards piston. The lack of the piston bowls caused incomplete combustion in the main chamber

As far as precups go I have a less popular opinion on cup sizes. I dont view the precup as "air flow" but more as part of the injection process. Fuel is still being injected after TDC so the pressure differential at the cup throat is going to farther atomize the fuel as it moves through the cup and into the main chamber. On paper the smaller cups should do a better job at atomizing the fuel. Not only that but it physically matches the ramp in the piston better in my opinion.

No one has proven which cups works better and why so at this point it all based on personal experience. More testing is needed for us to farther understand the affect each cup has on performance of the engine.

Will L. said:
300/600 is not hard with modern diesels- but the 6.2/6.5 platform is designed for fuel efficiency (mpg) not power. There is not a lot of people that hit those numbers and get over 100,000 miles on that engine.

so definitely you want the 18:1 pistons with the valve reliefs cut in them from Twisted Steel Performance imo. (Thats what I have for my current build).

Rockabilly has a ton of info on the precups and has many valid points to his argument. Some of us that went to the bigger is better theory on precups is from swapping them out and notice way more smoke with smaller cups and bigger turbo/fueling that gets dramatically eased with larger cups. You will not find new diamonds. You can find other new cups and have them machined out to diamond spec (something I’ve also done).

You can see on the original carbon burn marks on the edges of the mickey mouse ears of the piston. On Chis’ piston you can see it tapers off. Looks to me like it allows the flame front to blend across the piston better than the factory without loosing the inrush and outflow of gases through the precup directional channeling.

I went from 21.5:1 to 18.5:1 flat cut pistons many many years ago and HATED it. I blamed all the performance loss on compression loss until we swapped them out for some 18.5:1 that had the top made normal. It was the gm engineers that showed me that back in the 90’s. They said the mickey mouse ears were to spread the flame front out to the sides instead of across the top to the other side. The extra channeling in Chris’ piston will just give it more low area to flow out in and the high sone still in the center keeps it from going across.

If you look at the precup of flat cut pistons you’ll see carbon wash on them too. That stupid little divit is so crucial to get air flowing in and out of the precup. It’s like holding a water bottle the right way under the sink instead of dumping water from a bucket onto the bottle. It’s like a funnel.


So might see a solution to the cracked cups, it may be stagnet thremal expansion out the cup and across the piston. The sister engine sees this piston cut and pre-cup shape as the solution to get the heat out the cup. This could be a starting point for testing, just have a guinea pig engine with egt sensor in place of glow plug straped to some load. The 6.9 can have new bearings slaped in her and set to be killed again like kenny.


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EDIT: found another variant of a cut for bowls

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Most of the issues you will have / find are well known facts that others have spent tons of money / time to get around most of time finding the reality is just its a limit that cannot be surpassed reliably yes you can set them to kill but its a short fused powder keg and you have to just accept that also acceptance of facts driving one of these hopped up takes special driving habits / maintenance / routine otherwise the powder kegs fuse gets much shorter along with burns faster if you get my point.


I see this as a challenge that needs resolved, but need a mill or cnc to walk the path. Why cant I waste my own time and make the parts I want to brake for testing? I have a house with a garage and a empty lot to expand the garage, just need to get the repairs done. The option I see here that could be viable is to make my own cnc, this would be the controler and driver I think would chose for starter.

CNC controler
CNC motor driver
 
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1mouse3

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I also just thought about this but a 10cm housing that means your going to have alot of back pressure especially if you go to around 1800rpm or more according to my math you will have enough back pressure your drive pressures will be way outside spec of the turbo overdriving the turbine and causing super high EGT's 10cm housing is rated about 2.8l gaser and 1.8l or so of diesel 7.3l cut in half is 3.65l diesel you are trying to fit thru that 10cm housing 12cm is smallest I would go even then your dealing with alot of backpressure above around 2200rpm.


Think I see your reasoning for making me pay attention to backpressure. The 10cm housing on my hx35, is close to a know working size spec turbo. So since thats the parts I got, that will be the starting point for tests.

pistons...
94C1500 said:
As far as pushing the exhaust out by getting as close to the head as possible, its kind of a moot point, because the exhaust valve closes like 16 degrees before TDC with no valve overlap. The precombustion chamber is basically stuffed with exhaust. that is going nowhere. And regardless the stroke is still the same, so the same amount of air is pulled in to mix with the fuel. There might be a tad bit more of exhaust in there, but I think its more important to simply reduce the turbo drive pressure (engine backpressure) so that the exhaust can escape more easily and whats left in the cylinder is less dense, takes up less volume when it expands during the intake stroke. This is a great advantage of using a largish turbine housing, and honing the exhaust manifolds or having custom headers like ProCycle has.



This what I found on the subject, states should not let drive-to-boost pressure ratio get too far apart.


Turbochargers - How It Works
motortrend.com said:
Boost And Drive Pressures
While we've already introduced boost pressure, another important aspect of turbocharging is drive pressure. Drive pressure is the amount of force (in pounds per square inch) that is being used to spin the turbocharger. A drive-to-boost pressure ratio of 1:1 is ideal, although in reality, drive pressure is usually a bit higher than boost pressure. If a situation occurs where drive pressure far exceeds boost pressure (say, 35 psi boost, 65 psi drive pressure) then you might be looking at trouble. To imitate a high drive pressure situation, try breathing in a normal breath, then cover your mouth with your hand and exhale. That is what you're doing to your engine. High drive pressures are ******* parts and make your turbocharger much less efficient.

Too much boost can also be a problem for turbochargers. To produce more boost, turbos will spin faster, and every turbocharger has a spot where it just can't spin any faster. If you have an HX35 (found on '94-'98 1/2 Dodges) for example, it can only produce about 40 psi before overspeeding becomes a threat. If you run 45 psi of boost or more on an HX35 for any extended period of time, your turbocharger is almost sure to fail.


Also form that artical, it say that a wastegate can devert excess backpressure around the turbo. So a equal amoung of lag and time on the wastegate would be ideal, such that egt would be close to equal in both variables.

motortrend.com said:
Internal And External Wastegates, And Turbo Lag
In 1989, when Dodge introduced its diesel-powered Ram D250, it had a non-wastegated WHC-1 turbocharger installed on its Cummins engine. The idea was, since these trucks would mostly be used for hauling, great response was not needed. As trucks started becoming popular daily drivers, the need for better-responding turbochargers became a necessity. There is an amount of time that passes from when you floor your diesel engine to the point where it starts to build a fair amount of boost (say 10-15 psi). This time period is called turbo lag.

To reduce turbo lag, Dodge and other manufacturers started using much smaller exhaust housings and wastegating their turbochargers by diverting exhaust gases around the turbine wheel. The smaller exhaust housing would help the turbo spool up quicker, while the wastegate would allow excess drive pressure to be bled off once the turbo was up to speed. When diesel trucks are modified to produce more fuel or higher rpms, the amount of exhaust gases can exceed the capacity of the internal wastegate. If this is the case, a larger exhaust housing can be fitted, or an external wastegate, mounted in the exhaust manifold, can be added to the turbo system. It should be noted that not all turbochargers are wastegated. In competition applications such as sled pulling, the engine may only be operated in a very narrow operating range (say, 3,500-5,000 rpm). If drivability is not a concern, these racing engines can get away with non-wastegated housings and still have a favorable boost-to-drive pressure ratio.


as for turbo housings 12cm should spool around the 1200rpm-1400rpm happy spot and be good till around 2200rpm-2400rpm 14cm housing will light off around the 1400rpm-1600rpm area and be good upto around 2400rpm-2600rpm


So starting point on paper is 10cm at 1000rpm-1200rpm happy spot and be good till around 2000rpm-2200rpm and operational range is 1500rpm to 2400rpm. If we say this will idle at 800rpm, that gives 200rpm on both end of the range of the turbo. So on paper that looks like a good starting point.

Going to the zf5 off a 460 would give a spread where I could treat her nicer.

Code:
wide zf5, 35in and 3.75
rpm 1500 2200 2400
1 7 11 12
2 14 21 22
3 26 38 41
4 41 60 66
5 54 79 87


If need to spec to another size, dont think would have to go far up in size and single scroll would be better. I think 10cm enquls .65 a/r for the hx35. so this .70ar/11cm and .82ar/12cm should be the next two up in size.

.70 a/r housing
.82 a/r housing


I am going to be using a utcomp pro for gauge panel, it dose data logging. So if I add a exhaust pressure sensor, data can be captured from a test run to see if chose right.

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1mouse3

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I have these marine nozzels and curiosity had me inspect what the difference was...


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First I see this port dose not line up and not sure if is a issue.

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For the port to line up this pin would need redrilled in the nozzel

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As for needle pin being shorter, this spacer would need drilled for the spring seat to pass.

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It dose assemble and has the nozzel tight, just the extra length of the raised shank would keep a washer from seating. It will screew down into the head so the tip size is not a issue.

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Booyah45828

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I have these marine nozzels and curiosity had me inspect what the difference was...
One is a pintle nozzle and the other is a multi-orifice nozzle. Both are diesel nozzles, but they're pretty different design.

Kinda like peas and carrots, both are veggies but definitely not the same.
 

1mouse3

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One is a pintle nozzle and the other is a multi-orifice nozzle. Both are diesel nozzles, but they're pretty different design.

Kinda like peas and carrots, both are veggies but definitely not the same.

Yes there different and will wash the walls, but I see statement that they will improve running conditions with lowered compression. So see it as worth a shot along with deleting the glow plug to lower compression.

I could not agree more indirect injected vs direct injected the key take aways are compression ratio's higher compressions ratios mean are not as reliant on a turbo and in essence are more efficient and able to run alternative fuels easier because of the said higher compression also the things about lower compression motors is theyre more tolerant to higher boost lvl's for our IDI's its a fine line with decompressing our motors because of starting issues I find doing the 5.9 cummins 12valve 370 marine injector nozzles machined down to fit in our motors compensates for most of that our engines rely heavily on the compression / heat so when we decompress our motors we need to change our injection spray setup to make them emulsify the fuel better so the fuel ignites easier in the flame cup reducing the issue with hard starting when decompressed ( be aware these injector nozzles don't play well with glow plugs installed do the delete i list later on simply put theyre in the way of the spray pattern and stop the injector nozzles from functioning properly ).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Performanc...843019?hash=item5b77050a8b:g:amAAAOSwN35e5xbu injector nozzles

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intake-Man...213289?hash=item3d559acc69:g:rSYAAOSwoFVaVhWo intake heater

is the injector nozzles i speak of machine them down to fit aka the diameter where they go into our cylinder head these injector nozzles are a direct match to our originals where they go on the injector itself so its a simple mod ( retard timing slightly as these allow for quicker detenation of the fuel ) that makes starting our motors much easier then remove the glowplugs altogether and cut them off weld them shut on bottom then use a lathe to retaper them so they seal properly ( be aware these injector nozzles don't play well with glow plugs installed do the delete I explained simply put theyre in the way of the spray pattern and stop the injector nozzles from functioning properly ). Then add a intake heater from a 7.3 powerstroke ( or something similar theyre used in duramax diesels and many other powerstrokes ) where your CDR goes in back of your intake glow it on a cool day for about 10-15 seconds on a cold day 15-20 seconds and on a super cold day 20-25 seconds and your set and for the mornings where its way to cold plug the truck in or use a little ether it wont take hardly any these injector nozzles make starting much easier it suprised me first one i did it to before on really cold mornings ( up north cold not florida cold ) with fresh rebuilt injectors new nozzles I would almost do 1/4 can of ether to finally get truck started after these new nozzles ( 5.9 marine 370 nozzles and glow plug delete ) a little mist of ether or a lightly gas soaked rag in front of the air intake inlet / filter and off it went and very little puffing or anything just 3 rotations and it was running and almost ready to work and that motor was stupid decompressed ran 25psi of boost ( air to water intercooled super short piping all 3inch ) in that motor daily for years towing with the marine injector nozzles / glow plug delete and intake heater I never dynoed it but it was beastly now I do this mod to every one of my motors.


And yes these injector will shoot at the wall but see fuel gets on the wall anyway. Found this doing digging on precups and think testing needs done on ours being ported like there diamonds. I dont look to test this on the 7.3 and not sure when would be in a state to test on the 6.9. I am seeing data that suggest that the small port cup the we have chokes off combustion when increasing air fuel, in turn could be a cause of cracked cup with higher power builds.


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Rockabillyrat said:
I don't believe the super swirl theory.... But you are right about one thing. The air velocity on a single orifice precup like the ones found in the 6.5 do effect the combustion in the prechamber. The high velocity of air pushes the injected fuel to the chamber walls. Unlike a double orifice precup that does a better job of keeping the combustion centered in the prechamber. You can see proof of that in these thermal images.

But there is no way the increased air velocity from the n/a 6.5 cups are going to "put the flame out". Fuel is vaporized on the hot chamber walls then gets more heat from cylinder pressure to start the combustion event. So your theory of the air velocity pushing the fuel out of suspension is correct. But the flame isn't being put out. It's just been moved to the walls of the chamber. Fuel injection starts close to a TDC and ends slightly after. So the fuel injected after top dead center is being vaporized by the pressure differential at the cup throat. Turing it into a focus flame front positioned right at the piston channel. I believe either cup can handle any amount of fuel a DB4 can push out. After all the most I've seen is 300cc which is only .3cc per injection event. But what makes me like the square cups is it matches the piston channel better in my opinion. It should also increase the flame front velocity that might have good effects on the dual swirl in the main chamber. More pictures (Sorry about the quality, i had to zoom in)
 

Booyah45828

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Fuel is getting on the precup anyway. Difference between the two is that it's on the bottom vs the sides. To run a DI nozzle in an IDI the glow plug has to be deleted, or it will be torched and delete itself. The DI nozzle will start easier because it better atomizes the fuel compared to a pintle nozzle.

Read all that you can from Harry Ricardo. He was one of the pioneers of internal combustion engines, specifically the IDI diesel engines. He discovered a lot of interesting data regarding pre-chamber size, hole size, combustion chamber size, piston shape/design, etc. and how it all relates to the power being created. He also came up with the pintaux nozzle with CAV, which makes IDI engines better cold starters. One of my pet projects is finding an available pintaux nozzle that will fit into our IDI injector, and then testing that injector out for performance.

I feel that the pintle nozzle and "poor" atomization leads to a slower combustion event, compared to that of a multi-hole nozzle and it's finer atomization. I wouldn't run a DI nozzle in an IDI. But if I did, I'd definitely mess around with injection timing, as I feel the different nozzle changes the whole combustion event.
 

1mouse3

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To run a DI nozzle in an IDI the glow plug has to be deleted, or it will be torched and delete itself.


A resolution to an alternitive to that thought is underway...

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Read all that you can from Harry Ricardo. He was one of the pioneers of internal combustion engines, specifically the IDI diesel engines.


That for a tip on something to read.

He also came up with the pintaux nozzle with CAV, which makes IDI engines better cold starters. One of my pet projects is finding an available pintaux nozzle that will fit into our IDI injector, and then testing that injector out for performance.


Would like to see where that gose

He discovered a lot of interesting data regarding pre-chamber size, hole size, combustion chamber size, piston shape/design, etc. and how it all relates to the power being created.


What I have gathered about cup port is they need to match fuel supply given. This is a photo I found of 6.5/6.2 precups, the ones for the 7.3/6.9 are around size of one the top three. They found best life of the cup using one the bottom two when going for power, that is T and diamond cups. On the other hand the small port ones work out best for N/A and low power turbo setups.

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I am also finding the distance from the port to the base of this bowl is also important for proper burn. They say that expanding this bowl out helps pull the burn from the cup as well, where a flat cut hurts it. Need to test this and that cup to see what effect they play.

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But if I did, I'd definitely mess around with injection timing, as I feel the different nozzle changes the whole combustion event.

That what Iv been told thanks.

remember to set timing a bit more retarded to be safe and work it gently till she runs best never adjust when running it will destroy the IP.
 

Booyah45828

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Yup, ricardo found that a dish below the pre-chamber hole that allows it to swirl and hold the heat, which will continue to burn throughout the rest of the combustion is best. All of the prechamber, hole, and combustion chamber sizing stuff is based off ratios and fuel levels. The less fuel you burn, and the smaller that stuff should all be. It's also why flycutting the pistons to lower the compression isn't a good idea on these things, as you want to maintain the tight quench between the piston and cylinder head around the circumference of the cylinder wall.
 
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