Hydraulic lifter orientation and wear patterns?

Duke57

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That is my next step. I couldn't believe it when I cranked up the engine. I wondered of the oil filter was blocked but it is just 3 months old. And, I have 40 pounds of pressure when at cruising speed at 55 or 60. I think the oil pressure sender is after the fuel filter. Could collapsed hydraulic lifters stop the flow? This has been my daily driver for almost 5 years.
 

IDIBRONCO

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I think the oil pressure sender is after the fuel filter.
If you mean after the oil filter, then you're right. I don't think that a blocked oil filter would push oil through some pushrods and not others though.
Could collapsed hydraulic lifters stop the flow?
I'm not sure on this, but I guess that they could. If your engine runs right, and it sounds like it does since you can cruise at 55-60 MPH, then you don't have collapsed lifters. A collapsed lifter would cause a miss on that cylinder since it's not working and can't open the valve.
 

Duke57

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I thought about that also, that the engine would run bad with some of the lifters not working. At 55 to 65 it runs excellent and always has. I have changed the oil pressure gauges and have a mechanical one as the previous one was mechanical also. Always runs exactly 40 pounds after warmed up at cruising speed. And around 25 pounds idle. A friend suggested I check the push rods for blockages. I can't imagine a blockage, but I don't think there is 40 lbs. after the lifter going up the push rod. I just do not like the knocking as I think the valves are tapping the cylinder head. I will take a video tomorrow and post.

thanks for the reply, Bronco.

Mike
 

IDIBRONCO

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I think you're right. I doubt very much that full oil pressure gets through the lifters.
 

Big Bart

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I thought about that also, that the engine would run bad with some of the lifters not working. At 55 to 65 it runs excellent and always has. I have changed the oil pressure gauges and have a mechanical one as the previous one was mechanical also. Always runs exactly 40 pounds after warmed up at cruising speed. And around 25 pounds idle. A friend suggested I check the push rods for blockages. I can't imagine a blockage, but I don't think there is 40 lbs. after the lifter going up the push rod. I just do not like the knocking as I think the valves are tapping the cylinder head. I will take a video tomorrow and post.

thanks for the reply, Bronco.

Mike
Some thoughts
1) Most report only having 10-20 psi at idle. Your gauge may be a little off, or you have great pressure at idle. My point being watch for oil say at 1,600 rpm when your pressure is say +30psi. No oil then definitely look for plugged push rods.
2) TNBrett or IDIBranco perhaps can share how the oil runs through the engine. (I have not needed to rebuild mine yet.). It could be the front of the engine supplies oil to the lifters or the back supplies oil to the lifters. So those that are closest have oil pressure, those that are farthest perhaps have little to none at idle. As the pressure is bleeding off as it goes down the valley of lifters.
3) These trucks are more about oil volume delivered than the pressure.
 

TNBrett

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Maybe this will help. I don’t have any advice right now on trouble shooting this one, other than to start removing parts and inspecting them until you find a smoking gun.
 

IDIBRONCO

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So those that are closest have oil pressure, those that are farthest perhaps have little to none at idle. As the pressure is bleeding off as it goes down the valley of lifters.
There has to be some oil pressure at idle even at the farthest ones away from the oil pump. Otherwise, with no oil pressure, you would be wearing the push rods and rocker arms. Not to mention that the Factory Turbos and the ATS 093s get their oil feed from the factory oil pressure sending unit location. Those turbos are the farthest point away from the oil pump and still have plenty of oil pressure at idle. Looking once again at the diagram that TNBrett provided, you get a sense of just how awesome our oil pumps actually are.
 

Duke57

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Big Bart wrote:
Some thoughts
1) Most report only having 10-20 psi at idle. Your gauge may be a little off, (I agree, this gauge is just your typical cheap auto parts store buy) or you have great pressure at idle. My point being watch for oil say at 1,600 rpm when your pressure is say +30psi. No oil then definitely look for plugged push rods. (I saw your typical sludge on the surface next to the rockers from previous owners not changing oil regularly or using certain brands of oil. Back in '78 I had an IHC truck with a 345 V8 and used to use quacker state oil, changed valve cover gaskets and saw all kinds of sludge underneath. Started to use Kendall oil and if I remember correctly in about a years time it was gone. Point being I think you're right, that there could definitely be sludge in the tubes. And if there is sludge in the tubes it very well may be in other places in the oil passages. Like clogged arteries.


2) TNBrett or IDIBranco perhaps can share how the oil runs through the engine. (I have not needed to rebuild mine yet.). It could be the front of the engine supplies oil to the lifters or the back supplies oil to the lifters. So those that are closest have oil pressure, those that are farthest perhaps have little to none at idle. As the pressure is bleeding off as it goes down the valley of lifters. Thans for the oil passage schematic. That helps me out alot. I have read where the "piston cooling jets" have fallen out of the 7.3's or 6.9's and dropped in the oil pan, at least for the ones where the jets were brazed in. I am not sure if that was isolated to IDI's or Powerstrokes.


3) These trucks are more about oil volume delivered than the pressure. This statement is what opened my eyes, this is the same as a pool filtering system, i.e. designed for volume and low pressure. If you restrict any point in the flow schematic it should increase pressure in front of it. Now if the whole of oil passages have accumulated sludge on the walls, all passages collectively will, or theoretically, show increased oil pressure at the gauge. So, if I design an oil passage system with a certain diameter passage and measure pressure at certain RPM's with a known fixed flow, (given the principles of hydraulics) it would follow that to decrease the diameter would increase the pressure using the same flow rates. So if this engine has sludge everywhere, it is everywhere. And that begs the question: short of pulling engine, performing complete tear down and boiling down the block, is there a safe way to dissolve this sludge ( assuming this is correct about the sludge buildup) without large portions of it loosening and clogging the opening to where a oil passage would feed a bearing?

I had saved a lot of these pictures that were posted showing the specs of this engine but have to dig them out. Would you have one handy to post showing the spec values? I am going to pull the rocker arm off and push a clean SMAW welding rod down the tube to see if there is a buildup of sludge and will have to re-torque the rocker back on. Using a clean welding rod is how I cleaned the water passages that had buildup in the oil cooler 4 and half years ago, worked good too.
 
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Duke57

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1. I think I see a broken inner spring on a valve.
2. The pushrod tube was not clogged.
So...have to think about my next step here.
My daily work truck has to go down because I do not want to drop a valve having it tapping occasionally at times on the piston. May have to drive my wifes suburban for work as I take these heads off. Also, if I have oil coming out of only 3 pushrods on the driver's side of the engine, where is it going? If a collapsed lifter "can" prevent the oil from passing on to the pushrods, and I say if, that would explain the high oil pressure at cruising speed; if 40 lbs. is high.

3. I have always noticed in the 5 years I have been driving this truck, that as soon as I start the engine, the large water return hose to the radiator gets hard and tight within 15 seconds. No water in the oil but, it has always has a pungent exhaust smell that does not smell like normal diesel exhaust. I work on bobcats, dump trucks and excavators and the exhaust on those smell great. You know what I mean.

I may be at the end of the line on this engine. And South Florida doesn't cater well to IDI's. Anyone have a decent engine for sale?
 

Duke57

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I just went out and looked again with a high power LED, what I though was a broken piece of spring is actually brown pieces of that oil seal for the valve guide floating inside the inner spring. I could turn the whole spring by hand. Rotated it 360 degrees following the spiral of the inner spring and it looks intact just not a perfect spiral. So I may limp with this for awhile.

Bronco, do you know the torque value for the lifter bolts? I will do a search on the forum. I am just going to throw it back together.
 

Duke57

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20 foot pounds I found doing a search for the rocker bolt torque.
 

Duke57

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IDIBRONCO, I bolted the two rockers back and cranked it up. It took about 40 seconds for the oil to start coming out of the push rod tubes, all of them! I guess it takes time but the oil came out of one middle tubes first then the 2 next to the firewall then the front two last. Maybe it isn't so bad but have definite wear on the curved part that goes on top of the rocker that the bolt goes through. I don't know what that is called, maybe a rocker retainer or something. Just an old engine. thanks for your feed back.


Mike Duke
 

Duke57

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here are what the rockers and retainers looked like
 

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