How do y’all like to shift your ZF5’s?

stick_witch

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Kinda a funny topic, but I’m just curious. My idi has been my first experience with the zf5 and its been kinda a moody drivetrain system to figure out.

I should mention first off that my trans is pretty worn out. Syncros going into 2nd and 3rd are pretty and my reverse has the common pop out problem that old, worn out zf’s have. Its also worth mentioning that i have 4.10s so this thing is a torque monster when grabbing lower gears, and all of this has made the experience just that more interesting, plus trying to operate the horrendous hydraulic clutch system on these trucks up here in the freezing north, and having your bite point change depending on the temp[emoji23].

Currently my shifting habits are starting in second, or starting in 1st and blipping up to 1400 and usually having to double clutch up into second, then grabbing 3rd at about 2k, anything over I have to double clutch to get it into 3rd, then i just single clutch normally through to 4th and 5th. I double clutch rev match down through all gears except down into 2nd and 1st. And to get into reverse i usually have to kick the clutch in N and wait a couple times till i get good shaft alignment and a nice firm pop into reverse.

Curious how you guys shift your zf? Any double clutchers? Floaters? My experience has been that double clutching really takes a load off the synchros, but the clutch will wear you out if you’re having to double clutch to the floor every gear, since thats what you have to do in these trucks. And i’ve also found that the zf is super finicky to float and really just doesn’t like to do it (like duh, its synchronized), and really is pretty much impossible to float into gears if you have bad synchros, and if you do decide to do it you pretty much have to have absolutely perfect shifts every time

Also, does anyone have issues with these trannys just being clunky? Not sure if its just the state of mine, but when im putting torque down and pulling pretty good and im grabbing a gear, upon letting out the clutch the thing just sounds and feels clunky underneath me, like its got play in it. It’ll jolt pretty good sometimes too, even with proper rev matching and even if i try to slip the clutch a little bit more. Not sure what it is really, i had a bad carrier bearing, but i replaced it and its still just clunky as heck sometimes. Idk, I imagine it might just be time to have the zf rebuilt...

Any recommendations on rebuilding?


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BrianX128

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Still have your dual mass flywheel? All the oddities you mention short of some work syncros sound like dual mass flywheel about to be dual masses. Causes just... weird feelings when driving. Mainly that "back and forth" feeling at times.
 

jrollf

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I will add 1St gear in the ZF is not a Granny gear, you are supposed to start out in first everytime.

Family friend insisted on starting in 2nd all the time, myself and others told him it was a bad idea, but 'that's the way he always did it'... At only 60k miles he was pissed when had to cough up money to rebuild the trans and put a new clutch in it.

The IDIs produce a lot of bottom end torque so it can feel like starting in 2nd is no big deal, except your dumping a lot of torque through the transmission and clutch/pressure plate, that or you have to slip the clutch too much. 1St is your friend (when everything is working right).

You will shift out of first fairly quick, it just gets you moving.

If you still have the dual mass flywheel (often called a 'DMF') search the forum on his to check it for exessive wear and play. Unfortunately the DMF is not rebuildable.. many people switch to a traditional single mass flywheel (SMF) because of this.

1993 F350 Crew Cab Dually
7.3L IDIT with a Banks Sidewinder
ZF 5-spd manual transmission
 

Farmer Rock

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As far as floating gears, like you said, you shouldn't float them because they're synchronized, and by floating you wear out the synchros. I notice on zf5s or t19s, you have to keep the idle up a little when up shifting, but down shifting is very smooth. My international didn't do that, but it was also unsynchronized and I could float gears all day long like a big rig.
I don't think it's good practice to start out in second, it slips the clutch more and puts more strain on the tranny.



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Randy Bush

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I will add 1St gear in the ZF is not a Granny gear, you are supposed to start out in first everytime.

Family friend insisted on starting in 2nd all the time, myself and others told him it was a bad idea, but 'that's the way he always did it'... At only 60k miles he was pissed when had to cough up money to rebuild the trans and put a new clutch in it.

The IDIs produce a lot of bottom end torque so it can feel like starting in 2nd is no big deal, except your dumping a lot of torque through the transmission and clutch/pressure plate, that or you have to slip the clutch too much. 1St is your friend (when everything is working right).

You will shift out of first fairly quick, it just gets you moving.

If you still have the dual mass flywheel (often called a 'DMF') search the forum on his to check it for exessive wear and play. Unfortunately the DMF is not rebuildable.. many people switch to a traditional single mass flywheel (SMF) because of this.

1993 F350 Crew Cab Dually
7.3L IDIT with a Banks Sidewinder
ZF 5-spd manual transmission
In my 93 dually 1st is a granny because it has a wide ratio trans. When I first got the truck it had a close ratio, because I pull pretty heavy with it was terrible starting out on any grade. Rebuilt it an made it a wide ratio, works great now.

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Kevin 007

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Always start in 1st, unless you are already moving a bit or starting off on a downhill grade or something. As was already mentioned, 1st is not like a granny LO like some other transmissions had. in fact, it's pretty high geared. Too high for my liking.
Starting in second from a stand still makes no sense to me. The amount of clutch wear caused by this is simply foolish. You don't have to wind them right out in 1st before shifting to 2nd, but at least get it rolling a bit.

As for shifting, I don't "speed shift", I take it slow but still swift enough to kinda "catch" the gear before the syncro has to overcome a big difference in engine rpm/trans speed. And I always try to rpm match my lower gear when downshifting before releasing the clutch, to take up all the work that the clutch would otherwise be responsible for. Others often think that my shifting habits are overkill, but it has all become second nature and I also get maximum life out of my clutches and worn trannys just keep on going.....and going. So im doing something right. AND that's with working the trucks, they don't just loaf around or hwy cruise all day.
 

Randy Bush

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Always start in 1st, unless you are already moving a bit or starting off on a downhill grade or something. As was already mentioned, 1st is not like a granny LO like some other transmissions had. in fact, it's pretty high geared. Too high for my liking.
Starting in second from a stand still makes no sense to me. The amount of clutch wear caused by this is simply foolish. You don't have to wind them right out in 1st before shifting to 2nd, but at least get it rolling a bit.

As for shifting, I don't "speed shift", I take it slow but still swift enough to kinda "catch" the gear before the syncro has to overcome a big difference in engine rpm/trans speed. And I always try to rpm match my lower gear when downshifting before releasing the clutch, to take up all the work that the clutch would otherwise be responsible for. Others often think that my shifting habits are overkill, but it has all become second nature and I also get maximum life out of my clutches and worn trannys just keep on going.....and going. So im doing something right. AND that's with working the trucks, they don't just loaf around or hwy cruise all day.
With the way it is now built mine starts out at 5.72 compared to a normal diesel ,4.14 Which is pretty low I have to shift to 2nd fairly quick once get rolling.

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jrollf

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In my 93 dually 1st is a granny because it has a wide ratio trans. When I first got the truck it had a close ratio, because I pull pretty heavy with it was terrible starting out on any grade. Rebuilt it an made it a wide ratio, works great now.

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For OP however, I highly doubt he has a custom built (or swapped Gasser) wide ratio 5 speed.

1993 F350 Crew Cab Dually
7.3L IDIT with a Banks Sidewinder
ZF 5-spd manual transmission
 

Randy Bush

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For OP however, I highly doubt he has a custom built (or swapped Gasser) wide ratio 5 speed.

1993 F350 Crew Cab Dually
7.3L IDIT with a Banks Sidewinder
ZF 5-spd manual transmission
Excuse me!! I had a 4x4 gas zf5 took everything out of it and swapped gears around onto my diesel one. It is not a beginner job. So yes it was a custom build.
And if you don't think that is what I have , being you seem to know me enough to call me a liar?
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Fision

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I think what jrollf meant is that the OP doesn’t have a custom tranny.
I don’t think it was a denial of your setup, or your ability to accomplish it.
And that does sound like a lot of painstaking work! I would end up with a tranny case, a few buckets of parts, and more stuff to step over in my garage.
But a lower 1st gear while towing would be nice:Thumbs Up
And a lower reverse:cheers:
 

u2slow

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I've been driving stick for 25 years, and only learned to successfully float gears on MDTs and semi's in the last 5 years. I still can't float gears on my pickups reliably. More often fail and grind, than catch the gear, and I don't need the extra wear & tear. When the syncros are good, normal clutching works fine. I tend to do almost as as much downshifting as upshifting in my driving. Brakes are an accessory.

Personally a *really* like the close-ratio diesel ZF5... where you have low range available for slower 1st and reverse. I really want to run one behind a 6BT. Just that darn $adapter$.
 

Randy Bush

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Well I am sorry if I miss understood it. Sounded like he was questioning me. And yes it was some work. but it made a truck that will heavy pull, I pull a manligt that weights 15 k behind the truck , so that and he trailer are like 18-19k .
 

stick_witch

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Still have your dual mass flywheel? All the oddities you mention short of some work syncros sound like dual mass flywheel about to be dual masses. Causes just... weird feelings when driving. Mainly that "back and forth" feeling at times.
Not entirely sure. The clutch service receipt i got with the truck says it got a smf replacement. But I haven’t seen it for myself. Although i do get pretty good gear roll over noise if i lug it in low gears at low rpm. So idk, i kinda doubt its anything dmf related since i don’t think thats what the po had put in it.


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stick_witch

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I will add 1St gear in the ZF is not a Granny gear, you are supposed to start out in first everytime.

Family friend insisted on starting in 2nd all the time, myself and others told him it was a bad idea, but 'that's the way he always did it'... At only 60k miles he was pissed when had to cough up money to rebuild the trans and put a new clutch in it.

The IDIs produce a lot of bottom end torque so it can feel like starting in 2nd is no big deal, except your dumping a lot of torque through the transmission and clutch/pressure plate, that or you have to slip the clutch too much. 1St is your friend (when everything is working right).

You will shift out of first fairly quick, it just gets you moving.

If you still have the dual mass flywheel (often called a 'DMF') search the forum on his to check it for exessive wear and play. Unfortunately the DMF is not rebuildable.. many people switch to a traditional single mass flywheel (SMF) because of this.

1993 F350 Crew Cab Dually
7.3L IDIT with a Banks Sidewinder
ZF 5-spd manual transmission
Always start in 1st, unless you are already moving a bit or starting off on a downhill grade or something. As was already mentioned, 1st is not like a granny LO like some other transmissions had. in fact, it's pretty high geared. Too high for my liking.
Starting in second from a stand still makes no sense to me. The amount of clutch wear caused by this is simply foolish. You don't have to wind them right out in 1st before shifting to 2nd, but at least get it rolling a bit.

As for shifting, I don't "speed shift", I take it slow but still swift enough to kinda "catch" the gear before the syncro has to overcome a big difference in engine rpm/trans speed. And I always try to rpm match my lower gear when downshifting before releasing the clutch, to take up all the work that the clutch would otherwise be responsible for. Others often think that my shifting habits are overkill, but it has all become second nature and I also get maximum life out of my clutches and worn trannys just keep on going.....and going. So im doing something right. AND that's with working the trucks, they don't just loaf around or hwy cruise all day.

This is interesting because I hear so many others say and do the exact opposite thing religiously. But i do agree that the second gear is far too tall as a proper starting gear. I always grab 1st if im stopped on a hill, pulling anything, etc. but if im just rolling through stop signs im just pulling in 2nd...

Part of my problem is with all the low end torque and grabbing a low gear like 2nd, which has very worn out synchros on my truck, its a total bear to get a good, smooth shift from 1st to 2nd most of the time, especially when trying to get a good pull and get off the line at any reasonable speed. I mean my truck just simply won’t go from 1st to 2nd nicely if revved anything higher than 1500 in 1st, which is about 2-3mph on my truck...

My truck has 4.10s with stock rims and tire size atm so its slowww, and when starting in 1st im like REAL slow, especially when i have to double clutch or hunt gears from 1st to 2nd, then 2nd to 3rd. This also just all means that my 2nd is geared lower when its all said and done and its pretty doable to use as a starting gear when empty and just cruising off flat stops with pretty minimal clutch slip. I could see how if you had 3.55s you would definitely never want to do this. And then again, of course grabbing a bigger gear to start is always going to result in more clutch wear, its definitely a trade off, more so if you aren’t smart about it. But at least for me, starting from 1st every time just seems silly in my current setup, its just too low in my opinion for that, but then again not low enough if you’re towing anything sizable.

But i mean i guess its hard to argue with what you guys are saying, starting in first is definitely going to be a healthier choice always, but i guess i don’t really see how pulling in second on my current setup would be catastrophic to the transmission in my specific setup, since it is NA and geared reasonably low and i really don’t experience a whole lot of abnormal clutch slipping when starting in this gear.


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Farmer Rock

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I've been driving stick for 25 years, and only learned to successfully float gears on MDTs and semi's in the last 5 years. I still can't float gears on my pickups reliably. More often fail and grind, than catch the gear, and I don't need the extra wear & tear. When the syncros are good, normal clutching works fine. I tend to do almost as as much downshifting as upshifting in my driving. Brakes are an accessory.

Personally a *really* like the close-ratio diesel ZF5... where you have low range available for slower 1st and reverse. I really want to run one behind a 6BT. Just that darn $adapter$.
It is a lot easier to float a MDT or HDT rig than a pickup truck, since most pickups have synchronized transmissions. You really shouldn't float a synchronized transmission unless it's an emergency (clutch goes out) or you will damage the synchros. That is why most pickups are tough to float, they are meant to be shifted with the clutch.


Rock
 

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