Need Help engine wont start after trying lots of things .

[Carl bane]

]Hi guys I am new to the site but not new to the IDI 6.9 -7.3 engines . I love these old trucks and try to save every one I can get my hands on . I got a real problem and hope someone can help . So glad I found this site seems to be lots of info here. Ok this may be a long post but hear me out .
I got this truck two weeks ago from a guy who got it to fix up from another guy . At the time the other guy told him it needed an injector pump . The engine in it is a jasper 6.9 with what we can tell with only 4,000 miles on it . The guy I got it from Put a New injector pump , Lift pump, Starter, 2 new batteries , in the truck . he worked on it a month trying to get it to crank still nothing not even shooting it with ether or gas in intake. it is getting plenty of fuel to the lines at the injectors .He tested the glow plugs to be working and everything there seems fine . I brought the truck home doing the same thing I checked the fuel to make sure it was getting plenty of fuel , also checked to make sure the IP was cutting on when switch was on (listened for click ) I did use some gas in intake to see if I could get it to hit or anything (nothing ) So I pulled one of the injectors and turned engine over lots of (fuel came out of hole . (could it be flooded so bad it one fire) I know when he did injection pump he did not pull top cover so gear should be fine . We know the engine only has around 4,000 miles on it . I have not run a compression test on it . Any suggestions / comments ? I looked at a lot of Threads to see if someone had maybe same problem . Thanks in advance for your help /Suggestions . I have a 1986 Ford roll back with 6.9 IDI with 380,000 plus miles I was going to use this engine in . I also have 3 other IDI trucks I run so I can use all the help I can to keep them running .

 

[Carl bane]

One more thing I forgot to mention that the truck had sit 4 years before the guy I got it from got it

 

[franklin2]

I would do a compression check. Does it sound like the engine turns over with some even resistance? You are getting one that has passed through many hands that have given up on it, so it's probably going to be a challenging weird problem everyone else overlooked.

 

[cpdenton]

Welcome! Seems like you will fit right in here. For some reason, we all love these old trucks.

As for your problem. It seems as though you have eliminated some of the quick possibilities, but there are more questions. You have said its a new IP, but who rebuilt it. Many bargain rebuilders have proven to be nothing more than pump cleaners. Many "rebuilt" pumps do not have new head and rotors, which will cause very difficult starting. They won't build enough pressure to pop the injectors.

As far as not even getting a pop when putting some ether in t. Not real sure here. Are you getting any fuel out of the injector lines when you crack them open?

 

[Carl bane]

Yes I am getting fuel at the lines. I am not sure of the builder of the pump . And I am not close to the pump right now . Any idea why so much fuel would be down in the injector hole. I don't see a engine with 4,000 miles not having compression . But I am going to order a gauge to check it tomorrow . The engine is as clean as a pen . You can tell its a newer engine no oil all over it . Even with IP pump maybe not being right it would look like I could get it to hit. Could it be flooded maybe. Just to much fuel? I am kind of lost on this one .

 

[C_Luft]

When you turn the engine over are you getting any smoke out the tail pipe. Does your glow plug system work properly, or do you hear a bunch of clicks after the wait to start light goes out. What year is the truck.

 

[cpdenton]

Another thing to rule out for us...you obviously have several of these trucks, so you can tell for sure the starter is turning it over fast enough, right?

 

[IDIoit]

i would pull the IP gear housing inspection cover off and check the dowel to see if its in the correct location with your TDC mark.

it will run with it being a few teeth off, but maybe the cover did get pulled and fracked the timing.
seems like youve done what we all do, as long as you got compression, fuel, and heat.... it should fire provided it has correct timing.
dont think it being "flooded" would be a problem.
it should still spit and cough.

 

[MontanaJack]

You said "he" tested the glow plugs and they were okay. Are YOU sure they are fine? easy to check if you've got a volt/ohm meter. let me know if you need to know how.

I'd plug in the block heater for awhile, and be absolutely sure the GPs are working. could be a hard starter if its cold.

Also, if you're not 100% about the IP, maybe pull one you know works from one of you other trucks if its a 7.3 and give it a try. nothing unusual about the AIR side of the equation is there?

 

[david85]

Well first things first. Welcome to oilburners!

I'd second the block heater suggestion. Even a mildly healthy IDI will fire off with nothing but block heater heat.

Pay close attention to the tailpipe while the engine is cranking. If fuel is being injected, you will start to see white mist after about 5-10 seconds. This indicates raw fuel, and absolutely no burning happening in the engine.

DO NOT crank for more than 20 seconds at a time. Allow minimum 2 minutes cool down for the starter. Hold the pedal to the floor while cranking until you feel the engine start to catch then feather as necessary to keep it going. This will help purge any air in the lines.

EDIT:

Diesels don't flood. Too much fuel would more likely cause them to runaway or run very VERY messy/smokey until the extra fuel is burned off. Also be careful if that much liquid is in there. It could hydrolock if enough collects in the chamber. The fuel in the chamber could be from all the previous attempts at starting (not likely, since the fuel mist should get blown out on the exhaust stroke as described above), or it could be one leaky injector on that hole. Might want to check the other cylinders to see if only the one has fuel in it. If it is only the one, it could be allowing air into the high pressure side of the injection system.

 

[Carl bane]

i would pull the IP gear housing inspection cover off and check the dowel to see if its in the correct location with your TDC mark.

it will run with it being a few teeth off, but maybe the cover did get pulled and fracked the timing.
seems like youve done what we all do, as long as you got compression, fuel, and heat.... it should fire provided it has correct timing.
dont think it being "flooded" would be a problem.
it should still spit and cough.

Please tell me how to check the timing marks on the Pump , gears and so on .

 

[Carl bane]

Well first things first. Welcome to oilburners!

I'd second the block heater suggestion. Even a mildly healthy IDI will fire off with nothing but block heater heat.

Pay close attention to the tailpipe while the engine is cranking. If fuel is being injected, you will start to see white mist after about 5-10 seconds. This indicates raw fuel, and absolutely no burning happening in the engine.

DO NOT crank for more than 20 seconds at a time. Allow minimum 2 minutes cool down for the starter. Hold the pedal to the floor while cranking until you feel the engine start to catch then feather as necessary to keep it going. This will help purge any air in the lines.

EDIT:

Diesels don't flood. Too much fuel would more likely cause them to runaway or run very VERY messy/smokey until the extra fuel is burned off. Also be careful if that much liquid is in there. It could hydrolock if enough collects in the chamber. The fuel in the chamber could be from all the previous attempts at starting (not likely, since the fuel mist should get blown out on the exhaust stroke as described above), or it could be one leaky injector on that hole. Might want to check the other cylinders to see if only the one has fuel in it. If it is only the one, it could be allowing air into the high pressure side of the injection system.

OK if someone would take the time to tell me what I need to look for as far as the timing and so on it would be a great help . The engine spins fast no problems with engine turning over . When I took injector out . It sprayed Fuel out of the hole and on compression stroke I had my buddy try to hold rage / hand over it and it had a lot of compression . (don't laugh all we had at time ) Im ready to start at Zero on this thing and get it right . I need this engine for my roll back the one I got is wore slam out uses a gallon of oil every hundred miles .
This is what I know so far for sure .
1. lift pump is working to injector pump when I crank it over I am getting some fuel to lines.
2. Glow plug relay is working I hear it click and then click several times after ( I have not tested glow plugs myself do not really know how )
3.I have another injection pump off of a 7.3 if needed ( will it work on a 6.9 ? wont change unless I am sure)

I need some help with checking the timing on the pump and to make sure gears are in line I have never done it .
I am going to do a compression test this Thursday nite when I get home on truck .


Could a lot of cranking on the truck wash the cylinder walls out ???

 

[Carl bane]

Yes it is spinning plenty fast . Guy put new starter alternator and batteries in the truck .
I have never seen one that would not atlest kick back on ether or gas .
If I plug block heater up will it do the same as the glow plugs as far as heating it up ?

 

[icanfixall]

Welcome to the forum. My thoughts are the gear timing between the injection pump gear and the cam gear are wrong. some shade tree mechanics remove the pump, housing and injection pump gear as one piece. then you loose the gear timing. Checking is simple. Look at the damper timing tab. See the 2 tubes there. the short fat one is the top dead center number one cylinder. Not the tall skinny tube. Roll the engine around till the damper line is right in the middle of the fat tube. If the engine is as clean as you say then the line thru the tab with the zero on it will be seen. Now remove the diamond shaped cover with the 2 bolts on the front of the injection pump gear cover or the housing. Thats the aluminum housing the injection pump bolts to. The bolts there are 1/2 inch hex heads. When that cover is off look at the gear. If the gear timing is correct you will see the drive pin in the 4 o clock position and the 3 bolts that holds the gear to the injection pump easily. One bolt must be directly straight down for the gear timing to be correct. If the drive pin is at the 11 o clock position you are 180 degrees away from top dead center number one. Thats an easy mistake some make. The cam gear and the injection pump gear tuen once to 2 turns of the crank gear. Those big gears are twice as big as the crank gear. Every engine have a cam gear that is twice as large as the crank gear. Otherwise the timing would never be correct each crank revolution. If you look at my pics all this talk may be clear. If not please ask. You have done plenty so far and its really helped me attempt to tell you what I feel is wrong.

 

[IDIoit]

Please tell me how to check the timing marks on the Pump , gears and so on .

pull the front cover off the IP gear housing.
crank the engine to where the ballancer mark is on zero, which is the first hole in the timing tab on your left while youre looking at it.

i couldnt label the lines, but
the top line, is the dowel that the IP attaches to

the middle line is the mark on the ballancer.

the bottom line is the 0 mark @ TDC

this pump was 2 teeth off as pictured.
it still ran, but was 18 degrees retarded.

just make sure its close and not 90 degrees out

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