overdrive isnt a bad idea... ZF5 questions

bike-maker

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I was in the position of using what I had available, which ended up being the shift linkage off the BW 1356 in the donor truck (89 F250) on my BW 1345, and also using the tranny tunnel pan off of my donor - which dictated the transfer case shifter go through the floor just to the left of the tranny tunnel pan. As far as I know, the 1356 and 1345 are interchangeable as long as the yoke for the rear driveshaft is the same. The linkage is different between the two, but it's an easy fix.
 

The Warden

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also, i see you are running a BW1345, would you or anyone else know if there are any possible differences between the mounting of a BW1345 and BW1356 only in relation to how the transfer case and transmission mate up? i ask because i dont know if the ZF5 was offered with one case or the other, but that wouldnt matter if there are no differences in how they mate up.

and Warden, what do you mean by floating gears? i get the feeling that you are talking about shifting without using the clutch since you mention the syncros.
AFAIK the ZF only came from the factory with the 1356, but the 1345 bolts up with no problems. I reused my 1345 and have had no problems whatsoever...even the linkage bolted right up.

And, yep, that's what I meant...floating gears = shifting without the clutch. Even if you can do it smoothly (which I can do), it's still very bad for the syncros and will greatly shorten the tranny's life.

And, Jon, regarding the price...I should point out that of that price, $500 was to purchase the tranny from a guy who knows what it's worth, and $1000 was spent to get it rebuilt...another $600 or so for the clutch, and the rest of the $$ was for various little parts that you may not need (for example, I doubt you'll need a Ford crossmemebr LOL ). You can probably find a good used ZF for MUCH less, and although I'm personally not a fan of it, you could also follow Mel's advice and do a Lucky mod and save yourself some $$ on that front as well.

Long story short, I would suggest looking into greater detail how much it's going to cost YOU, before dismissing the idea.

Just my $.02 ;Sweet
 

franklin2

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I'm removing the 4x4 C6 and replacing it with 4x4 ZF5. There is less than an inch different in the length of the trannies and there is more than enough adjustment in the mounts to make up the difference and that is no where near enough difference to need new drive shafts.

I have a US gear Underdrive unit between the T-case and the tranny. So I'll have an over and an underdrive. I had to modify the tranny tunnel pan from the ZF5 donor so my old school T-case shifter would pass through the pan (like they do on all '83-'86) as the donor '91's T-case shifter passes through the floor of the cab.

The rest will be changing the pedals out, moding the firewall for the clutch master cylinder and getting rid of the column shifter. The Tranny otherwise will bolt into position.

Heath

Just for the record, the zf driveshaft and the c6 driveshaft are different. They are different lengths, and the zf has larger u-joints and a heavier walled tube.

That's not to say that you can't make the c6 driveshaft work, apparently everyone else is, but I have a 89 f250 4x4/c6 and I bought a 89 f250 4x4/zf donor and installed the zf in place of the c6.

I compared everything off the donor to mine.
-The lower zf crossmember and rubber mount are the same.
-The short upper zf crossmember brackets are not the same, and the c6 ones will not fit when you use the rearward hole for the lower crossmember. The lower crossmember has slotted holes, but none of this worked for me, I had to move the lower crossmember to the rear holes in the frame, and use the zf upper brackets.
-The zf rear driveshaft is shorter. I used it. But when I went to put it in the rearend, the u-joint would not fit. I had to take the big nut loose on the donor rearend and swap the yoke onto my truck to make the zf driveshaft fit. The zf u-joint caps were bigger diameter, and it's very obvious the driveshaft is heavier than the c6 driveshaft.
-Unexplainable is the front driveshaft. They were the same length. I might have gotten into a previous owner thing here, but you would think it would be longer since the transfer case got moved back with the crossmember.
-The wiring is different. Look under the brake booster and there is a lime green plug. Unplug this and take this harness out, and plug the zf harness in, and it all works, no wiring hassles with neutral safety switches and reverse light switches.
- You have to have the manual clutch/brake pedal assembly
-It's nice to have the floor plate that already has the hole in it.
-There is already a hole for the clutch master cylinder, just pull the block off plate out.
-I didn't use the clutch electrical switch, but there is a harness for that to.
 
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BigRigTech

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You can re-use the T19 flywheel and pressure plate, you will just need an 11" disc with springs and a 1.25" input....I have a T19 flywheel and PP on my 6.9 with a 4wd 460 ZF trans, bolt in deal. Clutch part # is CP31103A.
 

6.9poweredscout

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i'll be honest i forget what the clutch i have now even is...is it 11" for a t19? it just sucks i have less that 2000 miles on the kevlar clutch i paid $350 for! i don't want to have too small of a clutch on it and smoke it, i used 4x4 alot and with the 37's i don't want to ruin it. i had a scout that had a 10" clutch in it, after i put the 345 in it whenever i jumped on it in the mud in third gear the clutch would smoke....:puke:

is the input bearing the same? will the slave cylinder from the t19 work? and no one answered, what's the first gear ratio in the ZF5??

thanks
-Jon
 

The Warden

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is the input bearing the same? will the slave cylinder from the t19 work? and no one answered, what's the first gear ratio in the ZF5??
From U.S. Gear's website, the diesel ZF's gear ratios are:

1st - 4.14
2nd - 2.37
3rd - 1.42
4th - 1.00
5th - 0.76

You can re-use the T-19 slave cylinder with the ZF; I did this and didn't even have to break open the system i.e. no clutch bleeding ;Sweet

Which bearing are you referring to? I THINK the pilot bearing/bushing is the same; the throwout bearing is different (the ZF's input shaft is larger).

Just for the record, the zf driveshaft and the c6 driveshaft are different. They are different lengths, and the zf has larger u-joints and a heavier walled tube.

That's not to say that you can't make the c6 driveshaft work, apparently everyone else is, but I have a 89 f250 4x4/c6 and I bought a 89 f250 4x4/zf donor and installed the zf in place of the c6.

<snip>

-The zf rear driveshaft is shorter. I used it. But when I went to put it in the rearend, the u-joint would not fit. I had to take the big nut loose on the donor rearend and swap the yoke onto my truck to make the zf driveshaft fit. The zf u-joint caps were bigger diameter, and it's very obvious the driveshaft is heavier than the c6 driveshaft.
I knew that was an issue with a 2 wheel drive installation, but didn't realize it would be an issue on a 4x4 also. I have to ask; won't pulling the big nut off the yoke/pinion foul up the preload on the pinion gear? FWIW I knew a guy in the TDS days who swapped a 2WD C6 for a ZF and had the same problem with the different yoke size; IIRC he ended up finding a custom U-joint that had the smaller caps on one side and the bigger caps on the other.

I know that the 2WD C6 is shorter than the 2WD ZF; that's about the limit of my knowledge of the differences between the two...I swapped from a T-19. FWIW, if you're doing this on a 4x4 and use your old driveshafts (even if you have to resize them), there shouldn't be a problem with U-joints. :)
 

6.9poweredscout

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if it's only 4.14:1 i'm not gonna bother i need a low first gear! and i meant pilot bearing....little tired...

-Jon
 
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Shadetreemechanic

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if it's only 4.14:1 i'm not gonna bother i need a low first gear! and i meant pilot bearing....little tired...

-Jon

IMO first gear is too tall in the zf for much off road use. I use low range alot to get going when loaded, and NEED it when in the woods at all. t-19 is a much better low speed tranny.
 

david_lee

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well this probably a question that has been asked somewhere else, but its friday and i am a little lazy this morning. what exactly is the difference between a ZF5 from a 351 and one from a diesel or 460? if its just the bell housing, then could it swapped? or is the tranny just not as strong?
 

hesutton

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Just for the record, the zf driveshaft and the c6 driveshaft are different. They are different lengths, and the zf has larger u-joints and a heavier walled tube.

-The zf rear driveshaft is shorter. I used it. But when I went to put it in the rearend, the u-joint would not fit. I had to take the big nut loose on the donor rearend and swap the yoke onto my truck to make the zf driveshaft fit. The zf u-joint caps were bigger diameter, and it's very obvious the driveshaft is heavier than the c6 driveshaft.

I'm not sure I understand how the yokes/u-joints will be an issue. The yoke on the rear axle and the yoke on the T-case aren't going to change, just the transmission in front of them. There is no yoke on the 4x4 ZF5, just the output shaft for the T-case. I've got a US Gear Underdrive that goes between the T-case and tranny, so my driveshafts are custom length from the get go. The yokes however are the standard F350 yokes.

Sorry, but I'm just a bit confused.:dunno

Heath
 

hesutton

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well this probably a question that has been asked somewhere else, but its friday and i am a little lazy this morning. what exactly is the difference between a ZF5 from a 351 and one from a diesel or 460? if its just the bell housing, then could it swapped? or is the tranny just not as strong?

The bell housing and transmission case on the ZF5 are cast as one piece. There is no bell housing to remove. What I've done (and several others have done) is to modify the 460 bell housing to the diesel pattern.

Heath
 

DragRag

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If I am not mistaken, doesn't the F450 1st gear come with a lower first gear ratio? You may be able to achieve your goal with that one. The F450 trans even thought they are two wheel drive are a 4x4 trans, the parking brake assy is in place of the t.c.
 

david_lee

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The bell housing and transmission case on the ZF5 are cast as one piece. There is no bell housing to remove. What I've done (and several others have done) is to modify the 460 bell housing to the diesel pattern.

Heath

with that said, it seems a 351 trans is out of the question, but what about a 2wd ZF5? is it as simple as removing/replacing the tailshafton a 2wd ZF5 to be able to bolt it up to a BW1356? the problem i am running into out here is that almost all the available FZ5's in the area are 2wd, and the few(2 right now) 4wd units are too expensive for a used unit that i cant confirm the syncros are any good in
 
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