Cold 6.0 runs horrible

[4xMike]

My 2004 F-250 runs like crap the first start every day or if it sits all day. The truck has almost 95k. It is bone stock. When its cold it shifts hard as hell, and it's taking longer every day to get to the point that it starts running good. Also this thing is getting crappy mpg. i am lucky to get 13mpg lately. It doesn't seem to matter what the outside temp is cold or hot it still runs bad.

Any ideas would be appreciated. It will be going to a shop soon, I just wanted to see what other people had found.

 

[snicklas]

Mike,

After a couple of minutes and the engine starts to build some heat, does the problem start to clear up? I had a similar problem with my 03 Ex. On the initial start-up of the day, it had no power, to the point I would not go much above idle throught most of my subdivision because it had no power. Once there was a bit of heat in the heads it would clear up. This is a common problem with the 6.0L that Ford has called "stiction" (Stick-shun). The 6.0L has a HEUI injection system (Hydraulicaly operated, Electrically actuated, Unit Injector) it uses high pressure engine oil to create the pressure to inject the fuel in the cylinder. On an IDI, there is an injection pump that pressurizes the fuel, which in turn causes the injector to "pop" and atomize the fuel into the cylender. In the HEUI system the lift pump moves fuel into the injector at a "low" (~70psi) pressure. There is an HPOP in the valley in the top of the engine that pressurizes the engine oil and pushes it into the "top" of the injector. (~500psi to start and upto ~4000psi under heavy load). This engine oil pushes on a piston inside the injector, which pushes on an intensifier that increases the pressure 3:1. When the pressure is high enought the injector then "pops" and atomizes the fuel into the cyl.

What happens as the injectors age, the engine oil in them, when it is cold, is thicker and the injector has more diffuculty in using this oil to pressurize the fuel. So you have a ver poor running truck for the first few minutes in the morning, or after a long time of sitting. Ford released a PCM/FICM update that uses "inductive heating" to help to warm the oil in the injectors before startup. How this works is, there is a small electrical solenoid in the injector that controls the oil flow in the injector. Upon startup, while the WTS light is illuminated, the FICM cycles the solenoid which causes a small amount of heat to be built inside the oil area of the injector. This help to eliminate the "stiction" issue and the cold/no power issue. If you have this update, when you turn the key to the run position waiting for the WTS light to go out, you can hear a clacking sound as all of the solenoids are being cycled. This will be for just a few seconds. One trick I found to help until I was able to get it in for service, was to plug the block heater in no matter what the temp was. It would start and run fine if I did this, since the oil was already somewhat warm. This flash would have to come from a Ford Dealer, and my local dealer said they charge about $100 to so an update when it is out of warrenty. Luckily my still had a little warrenty left when I had the problem..

As for the crappy mileage. Have you changed the Fuel Filters lately? A 6.0 is very picky about maintenance. I change my oil a 5k and fuel filters at 10k with NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!! Also, use ONLY Motorcraft oil and fuel filter. Some of the aftermarket filters have caused problems in these engines. It is worth a couple of extra bucks on a filter to help protect your $10k engine.

Also, if you could fill in your Signature with your truck's info so we know what you have, it is easier to answer your questions that way. Click on the UserCP link in the blue bar at the top of the page.

I hope this helps, and if this does not sound like the problem, let us know and we can go from there.

 

[4xMike]

Thanks for the info. I used to change my oil every 3000 miles, but that was when I was towing every month. I change it between every 5-6k now. I change the fuel filters every 15k. The problems does go away after it is warmed up but it is taking longer and longer for it to go away now.

I wonder what the long term of the update to the injector control module will be. Will there end up being any side effects or harm to the injectors? Maybe only time will tell. My nieghbor has the same truck and just spent a couple grand on two new injectors for his truck.

I will try plugging it in till I can get it to the shop.

 

[snicklas]

I have not heard of anything with the injectors, but I have heard of it killing a few FICM's. The solenoid is the same one that works every time the injector fires, so I don't think it will affect them much. I think it would look into getting it flashed. It will only get worse as time goes on. I was amazed at the difference before and after the update.

Yes, injectors for these are somewhat expensive, but if you keep the oil and fuel clean to them, and do not run "junk" fuel (WMO, WVO.....etc) in them they will last a long time. I have also read, DO NOT EVER run out of fuel!!!! The fuel actually provides a cushion for the piston and other internal parts in the injector. It said that if you thought you were going to run out of fuel, to stop, shut the truck off and walk. If not it is almost certain death to the injectors.

I have always heard about the complaint that HEUI injectors are "so expensive" compaired to IDI injectors. Which on the surface seems to be the case. However, if you look at everything involved...

On an IDI, you have the IP, which I have heard a good, reputable rebuild can be $700+. Then you have the injectors themselves, which I think Russ's current price is somewhere around $250 and the $30-40 cost of a return line kit. The lift pump that is $35+ or if you switch to an electric can be a couple hundred dollars. The lifespan we commonly see for and IP and Injectors is 100-125k miles. So the potential with the # I used at ~100k miles you are looking at ~$1000 to "freshen up" the fuel system.

On the 6.0L there is the HPOP, Injectors and lift pump. The HPOP can live the life of the engine, the injectors can go 200k+ and have heard of even more. I can only remember seeing a couple of lift pump failures which is actually the HFCM on the 6.0. (Horizontal Fuel Conditioning Module, which is the lift pump, primary fuel filter, water seperator/WIF sensor/ on early modules the fuel heater.) So if you have to replace the injectors at 200k you are looking at ~$1600. Old out, new in drive away. HPOP if it fails is ~$500 from Ford and upgraded pumps can be had for not much more. So in the long run, the fuel system maintenance cost is not much different.

I am keeping mine stock, being diligent on the maintenance, and I hope to get 250k+ trouble free miles without much difficulty.

 

[4xMike]

Great info, thanks.

 

[snicklas]

Your welcome....

 

[jet1]

4XMike

X2 what Snicklas says. You might want to try a bottle of Hot Shot's Secret. It is an additive specifically designed for the HEUI injectors suffering from stiction. Check it out - they say it works 80%+ of the time, and when it doesn't its because the injector itself is shot. If it doesn't work they have a money back guarantee -I just ordered a bottle myself, tho I'll use it as a preventitive measure. Your issues sound like stiction, because after everything warms up it runs ok. I would put in a load of 5W-40 synthetic with the hot shot's and clean her out good.

 

[4xMike]

Tried plugging in the truck over night for the past few days, problem gone. Thanks for the advice. It is going in later this week to get checked out.
A question for Scott, since you seem to know your stuff, I run Rotella 15-40 motor oil. Should I switch to a different oil or is there a good additive that I can get that will help reduce the stiction. I am thinking even with the flash on FICM, if there is old oil building up in the injector I would like to flush it out. Also where I live there is a shop that specializes in injector rebuilding and cleaning. I haven't called them yet, but I was wondering if these injectors are cleanable or rebuildable.
any info is much appreciated.

 

[snicklas]

Mike,

I don't think the problem is an oil buildup, is is just as the injectors wear they do not handle the thickness of the oil when it is cold. I undestand the multi-viscosity, and I do not understand how that works, but I know by what I see that the 15w-40 is "thinner" and flows much better than when it is cold.

Think of the oil problem this way. A bottle of cooking oil, when you pour it into the pot to cook with, it flows slower, and the "pour ribbon" is much thicker that the same oil is with heat in and when you pour the same cooling oil warm, it flows more like water that a thin syrup. This is the same pind of issue that happens inside the injector body. The oil is thicker on cold startup than when the block heater is plugged in or the engine has been run and the oil is warm. I do not think it is the type of oil that you ues (the 5w-40 synthetic may not show the trouble as bad) but I think the problem is the fact the oil is in there. One earliet "fix" was to buzz the injectors and pump all the oil out of them on shudown. This caused the oil to leave the injectors while it was warm and this help, but did not cure it completely. The current fix that seems to work is the inductive heating tha I described the other day. I think the additives help to make the oil move better in the injectors when it is cold.

I was running Rotella 15w-40 when I was having the trouble and for a while after the flash. I am not running the Motorcraft 15w-40 because it costs a bit less and the truck seems to like it. I have not noticed a difference in this problem coming back, or getting better. So I am not sure if changing the oil type (dino or synthetic) or viscosity will help. I have just been pleased with the Motocraft which is 15w-40 dino oil.

 

[bismic1]

Stiction
There is a small spool valve in the top of the injector that controls the flow of high oil pressure fed to the intensifier piston in the fuel injector. That spool valve only moves .017", back and forth, on and off every time the injector fires. Many factors play in to how well that valve works such as, oil temp, oil quality, normal wear, ambient temp, and many others. As this valve ages it polishes itself inside the bore of the spool valve and as the spool valve slams back and forth it can set up the condition like a suction cup, hanging the valve to one side or the other. This uncommanded uncontrollable condition is called stiction. Mostly its a rough run cold condition but in severe cases it can be a no start or pretty harsh misfire condition. Oil that stays inside the valve on a hot engine shutdown and is allowed to cool slowly in the injector can aggravate the condition on restart.

So the newest reflash uses inductive heat after shutdown to keep the oil warm, keep its viscosity low, and maximize the oil flowability to purge the oil from them. It is an excellent preventative measure. 5W40 synthetic oil helps also. HOWEVER - after getting to a point, stiction can not be cured without new injectors.

The main reason why the 6.0 is so picky about oil is because it is totally reliant on two electromagnets to shuttle the spool and control the oil to the injectors. The 7.3`s use a electromagnet also but a spring to return the poppet to the closed position. Obviously the spring will work much better to "cut" through the thick oil and close the oil flow.

Not only will running oil with too thick of a viscosity cause rough starts. But this also will interrupt the shuttle action of the spool causing injection timing to be retarded causing poor performance and decreased mileage until the oil is up to full operating temperature. It can also cause poor combustion and coking in the EGR components and the turbo.

 

[4xMike]

Spent a depressing day at Bullet Proof Deisel investigating the problem with my 6.0. Found out how many ways international cheaped out on these engines. Truck is resting right now waiting for a cold start. Since it was well warmed up when I got to the shop we could only test a few things. In the morning it'll go through a cold start voltage test to check the FICM. Found out these also fail quite often. If it is just the injectors it'll probably getting all 8 since we pulled codes on some from bothsides of the engine.
Now I am looking at the kit Bullet Proof sells to replace the faulty EGR cooler and oil cooler setup.

 

[jet1]

Don't be depressed - you got good people on your problem, that's 90% of the fix already, the rest is just parts.

 

[snicklas]

4xMike,

I hate to say it, but the cheaping out was not all IH's doing. IH had a very good platform built, and the Ford bean counters got ahold of it, and did alot of you can use this part instead of that better, more expensive one. IH said ok, but that will shorten the expeted service interval of the engine. Ford asked how long will it last, if the answer was more that 100k Ford said ok, that gets us out of the warrenty period. So I hate to say it, but Ford had alot more to do with the 6.0 Problems than they want to admit to, since it is much easier to blame IH and sue them......

Just remember, IH is the same company that has engineered the old 6.9 and 7.3 IDI, the "bulletproof" 7.3 PSD and what seems to be the ultimate for some is the DT466 and the DT390. The reason that I say IH instead of Navistar or International is the International Truck and Bus Company is the only original part of IH from the turn of the century, they sold the IH nme to Case in the 80's but this is that same comany that started as FARMALL. The main difference between the DT466 and the PSD is Ford was involved in keeping the cost down. IH sells a VT365 in medium duty trucks, I have seen/heard a few which is really strange to hear that sound and it not be a Ford pickup, but IH has not had need the problem with the VT365 as for has with the 6.0PSD.

 

[jdchristian3]

i have the same issues. poor running until operating temp is reached. also, lack of power esspecially when cold, and poor fuel economy. went from 17-18 down to 10-12...

 

[snicklas]

jdchristian3,

Do you know what PCM/FICM flash you have? Has the truck ever been in for service? It may be resolved by a PCM flash..... I was amazed at the difference.....