What´s wrong- NO it´s not the obvious! Smokes like hell!

derjackistweg

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You have a bad injector or a bad valve. But you say the injectors are newly repaired and installed... Then remove the valve covers and see if a spring or valve is bad.
Did you install the injection pump and if yes..How did you install it...Did you hear this engine run before you purchased it. If not someone might have messed it up.

I live in Germany, IDIs are not right spend the corner ;-) engine came from Norway, ~1500 miles away!

Engine has full power, 70mph easy, and runs smooth, when warm. Therefore I don't expect a major hardware issue.

As this is a van I cannot lift the valve cover.
 

Macrobb

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If it is running on all cylinders(which I didn't see in the second video), then you need to advance the timing, and quite a bit as far as I can tell.

Just loosen the 3 nuts holding the IP to the gear cover(3 nuts right at the front of the IP, 9/16 wrench), and rotate the top of the IP towards the passenger side as far as you can. You want at least .060" compared to what it is now, judging by the smoke. You'll need to put a wrench on to the boss on top of the IP to hold onto it and rotate it.
If it's too hard to rotate, loosen the top 4 injector lines at the IP. If you really can't get it to move, you may have to remove all the lines, rotate it, and reinstall them.

Remember to tighten up the 3 IP nuts when you are done.

Try it and see what changes. You should have less or no smoke and more diesel rattle when warmed up.
 

derjackistweg

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If it is running on all cylinders(which I didn't see in the second video), then you need to advance the timing, and quite a bit as far as I can tell.

Just loosen the 3 nuts holding the IP to the gear cover(3 nuts right at the front of the IP, 9/16 wrench), and rotate the top of the IP towards the passenger side as far as you can. You want at least .060" compared to what it is now, judging by the smoke. You'll need to put a wrench on to the boss on top of the IP to hold onto it and rotate it.
If it's too hard to rotate, loosen the top 4 injector lines at the IP. If you really can't get it to move, you may have to remove all the lines, rotate it, and reinstall them.

Remember to tighten up the 3 IP nuts when you are done.

Try it and see what changes. You should have less or no smoke and more diesel rattle when warmed up.


I did not shoot a video later when it run good.

Thanks for explanation, I'll check that. Truck sits 200 miles away, do I want to plan as good as possible before driving there.
I have seen this video:
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icanfixall

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DO NOT TRY THIS... REason is this can end up ruining your injection pump. When you do this timing adjustment you have a chance the wrench slips off the pump . then the pump will crash over to the adjustment stops and snap the pump shaft. If.... And only if you try adjusting the timing like in the vid please DO NOT START ENGINE AND ADJUST TIMING. Set up the tools and turn buckle. Loosen the 3 nuts and adjust the pump. Tighten the nuts and test drive the truck. I feel this will help. But please be careful and NEVER try adjusting timing on a running engine. The injection pump makes way too much twisting torque and vibration from the running engine can cause wrenches to slip.
 

Macrobb

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DO NOT TRY THIS... REason is this can end up ruining your injection pump. When you do this timing adjustment you have a chance the wrench slips off the pump . then the pump will crash over to the adjustment stops and snap the pump shaft. If.... And only if you try adjusting the timing like in the vid please DO NOT START ENGINE AND ADJUST TIMING. Set up the tools and turn buckle. Loosen the 3 nuts and adjust the pump. Tighten the nuts and test drive the truck. I feel this will help. But please be careful and NEVER try adjusting timing on a running engine. The injection pump makes way too much twisting torque and vibration from the running engine can cause wrenches to slip.
While I'll agree with you in theory, in practice I once ran an engine(for a minute) with the bolts loose. I wondered why my timing was a bit... odd. Then I found out the pump was effectively free floating in the slots.

Didn't seem to cause any issue; I'd be more worried about stress on the lines than the pump - it can only rotate 1/4" or so, not a huge amount.

That being said, I haven't /intentionally/ ever adjusted my pump timing with the engine running. I always shut it off, make my adjustments, then restart, but it's more of a safety issue for me.
 

derjackistweg

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While I'll agree with you in theory, in practice I once ran an engine(for a minute) with the bolts loose. I wondered why my timing was a bit... odd. Then I found out the pump was effectively free floating in the slots.

Didn't seem to cause any issue; I'd be more worried about stress on the lines than the pump - it can only rotate 1/4" or so, not a huge amount.

That being said, I haven't /intentionally/ ever adjusted my pump timing with the engine running. I always shut it off, make my adjustments, then restart, but it's more of a safety issue for me.

I got your point, Icanfixall, and very appreciated. Security advice always - as I an obviously not an expert on that [similar to the different mechanics that have way over a thousand with that result].
There is a similar video to that with a running engine doing the same @ 2000 RPM with timing meter to, I believe, 8.5 degrees before dead center.

I will actually need to get a deeper knowledge of that stanadyne DB2. I think I heard that there is something to adjust the timing curve while cold engine conditions?

I have in addition the issue - still- that I cannot anymore kill the engine via key, as usual. I had the truck inside a garage that probably jump started the truck with 24v and after that this issue occurred (with several other ones: alternator defect, batteries defect). All this was BEFORE Engine swap. Key should give the Solenoid inside the IP a (positive 12V?) signal. Correct? This could not have something to do with each other, right?

Timing Value: What should the standard value for an 93 7.3 N/A? I read something about ~ 8.5 degrees? Correct?

If I do an static adjustment without electronic tools - a roughly guessing is 0,5 - 1 degree. This is so less that it is hard to target, IMHO.
 

Macrobb

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8.5 degrees is a good number to go to, if you have a new IP and injectors.
Once everything is worn, well, your timing curve goes out the window.

Just adjust it until it has the most power, which will be pretty close to optimal.

A few reference points:
1. When cold, you should hear some diesel rattle/clatter, like it's advanced. Disconnect the cold advance and it should mostly go away.
2. Once warm, on the highway in top gear, you should hear just the faintest bit of diesel rattle. None(sounds like a gasser) means it's retarded. A lot of clatter means it's advanced.
If you are smoking white/gray, you are retarded. If you smoke black when flooring it or snap-testing, you are correct or advanced.


Just play with it. You aren't going to hurt it. I've run an IDI a full two teeth(like 12 degrees) advanced before - clattered like heck and had no power.
I've run an IDI a full tooth retarded before as well. It smoked quite badly.

Unless you are messing with the timing gears, you /cannot/ rotate the pump enough to prevent it from starting. It doesn't have that much travel.
 

derjackistweg

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Process:
I got way ahead now. Turning - or just loosening the 3 screws in a van application is a real pain!

But finally I got it done. Turned the IP to the max to passenger side. Before it looked like stock, from the markings position (probably at least).

Smoke in idle was always gone! :Thumbs Up
The engine sounded even more smooth and was very, very responsive to the gas pedal. Very good. Tightened the screws, put all together again....
... But than smoke again:( probably from tighten down the screws IP turned again shortly retarded.

It's better now, but it could be probably better.

#1: Germans and smoke does not come together really.
#2: IP to the max advanced now, why is that? Engine runs in idle and with high rpm great (when warm). Could it be new injectors vs. old Pump?
Meaning the injectors open at 140 bar of I remember right - though if IP does not or a little late push enough fuel to open injectors... Could be like that, right?

IP has roughly 100k miles.
 

icanfixall

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Now it sounds like the injection pump is worn out if the smoke went away but now came back. you really need to check the timing with a meter to know if it changes. If the injection pump is not bad or worn out then this sounds like the injection pump gear cover was removed with the injection pump. then it was installed and now the gear timing is off by 1 or 2 teeth. Here is a picture of what the gear timing MUST look like. Notice the cam gear has 2 different timing marks. The Y MUST match the injection pump gear Y and the dot MUST match the cam gear dot.
 

Macrobb

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So... I've had at least 3 IPs that have done this on various trucks - After sitting for a while, something 'sticks' inside, and it becomes almost exactly 1 tooth retarded.

You can definitely advance the IP gear by 1 tooth and it'll work around the problem just fine. I've run a couple of trucks that way for many months, as it basically fixed the problem... but I know it wasn't 'right'.

Just be aware of advancing it 2 teeth when trying to advance it 1(it'll clatter really loudly and be hard to start and you should know it), and that if you buy a new IP, you'll need to retard the gear again.
 

derjackistweg

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Hi

I am frustrated I am stepping back again.

So after a nice output without any visual smoke for some minutes after advancing, smoke came back.
The idea was to again check if the advancing can bring it back. I thought that maybe while tightening it got retard.

I wrong as it seems.

I first installed 8 new glow plugs and a new GP relays.

Smoked like it was when shut off last time. Ran for roughly half an hour. Engine was warm (big cooling circuit). While truck parked, from time to time with higher rpm.
Then suddenly after I drive back and forth 10 meters, smoke was very much more present!

I shut it off. Went again for the timing to get the status from 2 weeks ago. It only went to the status before. Smoking.
With higher rpm similar, not so present because of more exhaust gas over all.
No change between letting the throttle down or not.

Stronger smoke while letting throttle down (lifting the pedal) should lean into bad valve guides and engine sucking oil dust.

Doesn't seem like that to me. Smoke is definitely blue not grey/black.

Remember combustion pressure is 33 bar on all. At least the lower part of the engine is in good condition. Engine starts warm immediately!

Cold (GP stuff all working) it doesn't run on all.
Injectors all redone and double checked by different garage (who changed half of them due to no good, I doubt that. Though this didn't change anything).

So oil or diesel in the exhaust???

How to check bad valve guides?
It's an econoline so getting the IP of is no fun...
 

DaveBen

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Have some one smell the smoke to determine if it is oil or diesel.
 

towcat

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you need to replace the injection pump ASAP before you wash down another set of rings.
get the injectors checked at the same time or better yet, replaced
 

derjackistweg

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One more question and one more info:

Question:
I saw a, I believe, 3 pin connector on the engine block passenger side low, right above the starter. It's not connected the wire from the cable tree coming is not compatible as it seems to the engine [ original is 1992, the engine is from 1994].
What is it for?


Info: I can see a stream coming out is the oil filler in idle. No obvious smell doesn't feel oily. I guess water....

Could be oil cooler gasket.
Though this doesn't explain the blue smoke.

- Thanks for the answers above. I can smell myself behind the car, though diesel is a kind of oil and didn't really smell very different.
- Injectors are redone. They are not the source of the smoke.


Is there an easy way to check for valve guides? I personally don't think it's the valves. Engine is just roughly 100k miles and remember the compression is in all 450psi. So strong below and bad above- didn't convince me.
 

towcat

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One more question and one more info:

Question:
I saw a, I believe, 3 pin connector on the engine block passenger side low, right above the starter. It's not connected the wire from the cable tree coming is not compatible as it seems to the engine [ original is 1992, the engine is from 1994].
What is it for?


Info: I can see a stream coming out is the oil filler in idle. No obvious smell doesn't feel oily. I guess water....

Could be oil cooler gasket.
Though this doesn't explain the blue smoke.

- Thanks for the answers above. I can smell myself behind the car, though diesel is a kind of oil and didn't really smell very different.
- Injectors are redone. They are not the source of the smoke.


Is there an easy way to check for valve guides? I personally don't think it's the valves. Engine is just roughly 100k miles and remember the compression is in all 450psi. So strong below and bad above- didn't convince me.
3pin connector is the block heater unit. the wire plugs into the pins.
the "stream" ....... you mean vapors/smoke?
 

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