WiDE - Water in Diesel Emulsion

bbjordan

Snow Monkey
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Posts
1,421
Reaction score
393
Location
Ashern Manitoba
So, what has the Grampulator been up too lately? Well, while tracking down some WMO, I recently came across some stuff that was supposedly "diesel rich". About 1250 liters of stuff. I had to remove it to get to the WMO, which I haven't got to yet...

Anyway, I took a sample of it, and let it sit to see if it would settle out. It kind of smelled like diesel, but looked really cloudy. The jar with the green lid in the pic.

You must be registered for see images attach


I decided to see if it would burn, by taking a rolled up piece of paper and lighting it on fire. Burn, it did. Rather well actually. Next, I put some in a container and burned that to see if there was any water left over. No water, but it could have burned off.

Next, I took the density of it. It worked out to .851 compared to water. Comparing that to the density of diesel fuel (.832), I figured the stuff contained about 11.5% water...and it wasn't separating. Not with a little heat, and not with a little gasoline added either.

After researching how to separate diesel and water, I learned that separating a water/diesel emulsion is difficult. It looked like I had an emulsion. :( Maybe that is why I got it and the tote just to remove it.

Then, an article on the use of Water in Diesel Emulsion to reduce NOx emissions caught my eye. The gist of this and other articles which I found was that guys in lab coats were burning these emulsions in ratios of up to 40% water in diesel engines!

My take aways from the studies were:
1) that it's possible
2) optimal results* were using 5-10% water
3) it tended to retard the ignition somewhat
4) it lowered N0x emmisions

* My interpretation of optimal is more torque with lower BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) and lower emissions

It was difficult wading through all the studies, some of which were contradictory, but that is what I got out of it, and it makes sense.

Armed with this new knowledge and some biodiesel that I had, I set about to create a fuel mix to try to burn in my 1986 with a 6.9l Naturally Asperated engine. I decided to use a 20% blend of biodiesel with 80% of this emulsion. 20% bio because most diesel vehicles now will take 20% biodiesel, and with 20% bio, you get maximum fuel lubricity. The cetane number of biodiesel is higher than diesel and requires less advance, so hopefully this would counteract the effect of the emulsion retarding the timing as I really didn't want to mess with timing every time I switched fuels. So I took an unfiltered sample of the emulsion and added 20% biodiesel and shook it up and let it sit. The taller jar in the pic.

You must be registered for see images attach


Immediately, I thought I should have filtered the emulsion first. I was worrying needlessly about filtering tho. The bio worked great at precipitating the crap in the sample. Overnight there was immediate results.

You must be registered for see images attach


I have noticed before that biodiesel is a great cleaner and tends to be self cleaning too. After using it to clean stuff, I have just let it sit. After a few days/weeks/months the crap just settles out.

So I mixed up a whole drum. This time I did pass it through a 10 micron filter, but it didn't look very much different.
Not something I really wanted to put through my engine with the relatively new Baby Moose injection pump. But, confident that the bio would help clean it up, I added the 20% bio to it and let it settle for a week.

You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach


A week later I took a sample and it looked like my test sample: nice and clean. Still cloudy from the emulsified water, but clean, with a nice golden colour. I felt better about putting this through my engine. So, I filled the front tank with 61 liters of the mix and fired it up on rear tank. The engine was already warm when I switched it over to the new fuel in the front tank. I nervously waited for the new fuel to hit the engine...and waited...and waited. Hmmm, no difference. I expected some difference, maybe a stumble or higher or lower idle...nothing. So I decided to take it for a run.

In the box of the truck I had the remnants of an old Elm tree that the recent snow had destroyed which needed to go to the dump. This is a good run because there is a monster hill to climb to get there. I was passing a semi as I accelerated up the hill and noticed black smoke coming out the exhaust. I'm not sure if it was soot getting steam cleaned out of the cylinders, if maybe the timing is out, or if I'm just dumping too much fuel into it, but it ran great!

Later we took the truck out to the in-laws to party, but I shut it down on pump diesel from the rear tank. I didn't want to risk a cold start with the new fuel, especially away from home. When we got home I shut it down still on the new fuel.
Two days later, it fired right up! Woo Hoo!

I also mixed up a barrel of a 10% bio mix. This seemed to have more water come out of suspension. I may try this in the truck, but the truck seems to like the 20% mix.

You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach


My observations are that it seemed to run more smoothly, but it's really hard to say. When switching between tanks, I really couldn't tell the difference. It seemed to use more fuel, but I was not testing with a light foot. Hey, it's in the name of science. :)

I will have a better idea of the mileage when I take a trip out to my folk's farm. It's 4 hours one way and normally takes a little better than 3/4s of the rear tank. That won't be for a few weeks tho. If that works out good, the next test will be in the 1997 7.3 PSD.

I looking forward to putting a turbo on the 6.9. That should clean up that black smoke!

I'm still working on getting my waste oil filtering system going. I have most of the parts, I just need some minor stuff like some 10 gauge wiring, pipe fittings and some hose. I just need more time to put it all together.

If you have read this far, you deserve a medal or something. :)

Thanks for looking,
Gramps.
 

The FNG

NOT a Powerstroke!
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Posts
335
Reaction score
11
Location
Goldendale, WA
Pretty interesting. This isn't the first time I've heard of using veggie oil to clean other fuels. Supposedly, if you add veggie to WMO, it will settle out the black sludge. In your experiment, what settled out? Was it particulates or water or both?
 

bbjordan

Snow Monkey
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Posts
1,421
Reaction score
393
Location
Ashern Manitoba
Rapeseed Methyl Ester

FNG, it's biodiesel not veggie oil. Big difference.

The bio is a really good cleaner. I put a valve, rotator, spring and retainer in a jar of bio and let it sit. I checked it after a month and it was mostly clean. It still had some hard deposits on it. I let it sit some more months and just checked it.

You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach


You can see how clear the solution is. When I first put the valve in and stirred it a bit, the solution was black.
The hard deposits on the valve were flaking off when I just check it! Amazing!

In my experiment, the particulates settled out, but not the water. In fact, the 20% bio mix seems to hold the water in suspension better than the 10% mix. Perhaps it's a mild surfactant?
 

Attachments

  • Valve_and_biodiesel.jpg
    Valve_and_biodiesel.jpg
    524.9 KB · Views: 17
  • Valve_in_biodiesel.jpg
    Valve_in_biodiesel.jpg
    423.5 KB · Views: 15

79jasper

Chickenhawk
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Posts
17,367
Reaction score
1,930
Location
Collinsville, Oklahoma
That's why first time biodiesel users should carry spare filters, it'll knock crap loose.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
 

Brad S.

Full Access Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2010
Posts
1,603
Reaction score
2
Location
NW IA
Wow is right, lot of good info.
I'm glad you could actually use that fuel mix and not have to throw it.
Do you think wmo might react the same way???
With a certain percentage of bio mixed in.
I'd be curious if your glow plugs will change in appearance, meaning that this mix is actually cleaning stuff.....????
Keep the info coming, thanks a lot.
 

bbjordan

Snow Monkey
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Posts
1,421
Reaction score
393
Location
Ashern Manitoba
Brad, that is a good question. I don't know. I have not done it...yet. I don't know if I would feel comfortable running such a viscous mix. It should be doable as there are guys on this site that are running higher concentrations of WMO than 80%. I think there are guys running 100% WMO. The bio would thin it a bit which is good, and the better cetane rating would certainly help.

I wonder if water could be emulsified in a WMO mix? It's kind of like built in water injection. Oh, that reminds me, the research showed that WiDE lowers EGTs! My truck doesn't have a pyrometer in it yet, so I can't verify that.
 
Last edited:

Brad S.

Full Access Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2010
Posts
1,603
Reaction score
2
Location
NW IA
I think water could do that, think I've seen some pics of "milk chocolate" looking wmo...
Really like this idea/thread of running this kind of "fuel".;Sweet:popcorn
This fuel might have a good cleaning effect. Little concerned about the IP and water/moisture etc, but maybe the bio takes care of that....
I'm thinking this kind of fuel might run the best during warm times of the year.
Even though I'm not up and running, might go buy 5 gallons of biodiesel and mix it with some wmo, let it settle. Maybe it(wmo) will settle out faster...????
 

bbjordan

Snow Monkey
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Posts
1,421
Reaction score
393
Location
Ashern Manitoba
A good day to change the fuel filter heading into fall.

Update: I had to change the fuel filter today.

It had been running fine last weekend when it was 20 degrees Celcius. But the last couple of trips, it was stalling when coming to an idle. It is a little cooler out too. To me it seemed like the truck was running with it's timing too far retarded. I should have clued in then. I thought maybe the fuel was somehow causing the advance piston not to advance. I think I know why now. The advance piston works off a pressure differential, the difference between case pressure and incoming fuel pressure. Fuel pressure from the vane pump that is. Now the vane pump normally sees about 7 psi coming from the fuel lift pump. But when a dirty nasty fuel filter gets in the way of that, the pressure drops all the way down the line. This causes less pressure on the advance pump...and advance goes away. Fast forward to this morning when it is only 6C now and the truck does not want to start. Not even with starting fluid. Don't worry, I know what I'm doing and my glow plug system is manual. Then I noticed there was no white smoke. Doh! Ok, maybe I don't know what i'm doing. :) But I did have enough sense to change the filter. It had been probably close to a year since this one's been changed. I filled the new one with B100 and screwed it on. A couple of cranking sessions later it was running like its self again.

I've had other problems with filters plugging. I think it stems from poorly made biodiesel.
Poorly made biodiesel has too many mono di and tri-glycerides in them from incomplete transEstrification.
I think these are the things gunking my filters. They seem to form a plastic like sludge on everything. When left exposed to the air, it forms a resin that is difficult to get off even with a Putty knife.

If there are any chemists out there. What is that stuff? Is there a cost effective way to filter it out before it hits the tank?
 

Brad S.

Full Access Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2010
Posts
1,603
Reaction score
2
Location
NW IA
"I'm not a chemist, but I play one in the bio section on the OB":rotflmao:rotflmao NOT

One kind of filter that first comes to mind is the screen thats on my electric fuel pump.(carrier pump)
Don't know if that would be "fine or small" enough to catch this stuff.
Maybe the old inline gas filter that all the cars used to use would work, paper element???
Do you think its bad bio diesel or could it be junk getting cleaned out of the fuel system, tank, lines, etc???
 

bbjordan

Snow Monkey
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Posts
1,421
Reaction score
393
Location
Ashern Manitoba
Carry a spare filter.

Some pics of the fuel filter with and without flash:

You must be registered for see images attach
You must be registered for see images attach


Close-up:

You must be registered for see images attach


I scraped it with the razor knife three times:

You must be registered for see images attach


I think it is the glycerin/glycerols plugging the filters and causing me grief. My producer had gotten some WVO mixed in with my biodiesel a while back. This resulted in a gunked up Injection Pump and plugged injectors. I thought I had this all sorted out, but maybe not. :p

Any one else have fuel filters that look like this?
 

Attachments

  • Fuel_filter_1.jpg
    Fuel_filter_1.jpg
    791.3 KB · Views: 12
  • Fuel_filter_2.jpg
    Fuel_filter_2.jpg
    748.6 KB · Views: 11
  • Fuel_filter_3.jpg
    Fuel_filter_3.jpg
    555.2 KB · Views: 12
  • Fuel_filter_4.jpg
    Fuel_filter_4.jpg
    654.2 KB · Views: 13

tbrumm

Full Access Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Posts
1,224
Reaction score
187
Location
Richland Center, WI
I think it is the glycerin/glycerols plugging the filters and causing me grief. My producer had gotten some WVO mixed in with my biodiesel a while back. This resulted in a gunked up Injection Pump and plugged injectors. I thought I had this all sorted out, but maybe not. :p

Any one else have fuel filters that look like this?

That is exactly what the inside of my fuel tanks looked like when I dropped them. I thoroughly cleaned them out with hot, soapy water to get rid of the residual glycerin(or whatever it was)coating the inside of the tanks, and then thoroughly dried them out. I run only pump diesel in my truck and haven't tried alternative fuels, but read these threads with interest. When I saw your filter pics, they reminded me of my fuel tanks. My truck would run fine down to 10°F, but below that the residual glycerin in the system would blind the filter and shut the truck down. Changing the filter would help for a short while until it plugged again. A wrap around blanket heater for the filter would at least keep the truck running below 10°F. Since I cleaned the tanks, I have had no more problems.

I can only assume the Air Force (previous owner of my truck) ran Bio in it. Perhaps the Bio (no doubt purchased from the lowest bidder) was not properly mixed and caused my problem.
 
Last edited:

bbjordan

Snow Monkey
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Posts
1,421
Reaction score
393
Location
Ashern Manitoba
4 week samples

This weekend I will be going out to the farm. I will have more information then.
For now, I have left my samples outside where it has undergone some freeze-thaw cycles. Still looks ok.
First pic is all samples. From left to right: straight WiDE, 10%bio, 20%bio.
You must be registered for see images attach

The straight WiDE has settled out a bit more, but it is still very murky.
You must be registered for see images attach

The 10%bio-WiDE mix hasn't changed much, but more water has settled out, much like the straight WiDE.
You must be registered for see images attach

The 20%bio-WiDE mix looks much the same as it did before. The water has stayed in suspension, and just the particulate matter has precipitated.
I'm liking this. ;Sweet
You must be registered for see images attach


I went to hook up my pyrometer, and realized it was missing the fitting that the probe sits in. Doh!
A better EGT probe is on order WITH the adapter fitting.

I'm tempted to advance the timing a little bit, because I had retarded the timing to about 8.5* BTDC (pulse method) to optimize it for the bio/diesel mix it was running, but I'll wait to see what the fuel consumption is like first.
The truck will be hauling a trailer out to the farm for winter storage so that will skew the mileage.

The trip home will give me a better idea; I will not be pulling a trailer.

Stay tuned. :)
 

Attachments

  • WiDE_samples_4weeks.jpg
    WiDE_samples_4weeks.jpg
    744 KB · Views: 8
  • WiDE_4weeks.jpg
    WiDE_4weeks.jpg
    403.3 KB · Views: 6
  • 10%Bio-WiDE_4weeks.jpg
    10%Bio-WiDE_4weeks.jpg
    424.4 KB · Views: 7
  • 20%Bio-WiDE_4weeks.jpg
    20%Bio-WiDE_4weeks.jpg
    439.7 KB · Views: 7
Last edited:

bbjordan

Snow Monkey
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Posts
1,421
Reaction score
393
Location
Ashern Manitoba
Less retarded?

On second though, I will advance the timing. Probably 10* advanced. I'm taking off the radiator fan and shroud too, but they'll be coming with me. :)

Am I excited? Well yes, but a little anxious too. I mean, it's a antique truck with a Redneck 6.9 Rebuild running a mostly untested fuel without a fan.
What could go wrong? :D :rolleyes:
 
Top