TIMING Tape and timing our engines,

Got to thinking why do we need an adjustable timing light to time our trucks if we use a Ferret adapter

WE DO NOT!

Or do we?

So we don't have timing marks scribed onto the harmonic like most SB Ford chev etc or most other gassers right

Thus we have no point of reference to line up for a timing mark with a timing light.

Well it came to me when I was discussing this with my friend about PROPANE timing and whats required.

What if we took the DIAMETER of our harmonic, I think it's about 7" IIRC someone can correct or correlate that as fact.

So here we have a known diameter of harmonic

Thus why not go to say Summit racing or some other place and invest in timing tape like what is pictured below?





I don't know if this is something that would work or NOT, Now a fully degreed harmonic would be sweet so I'm thinking timing tape is cheap, why not, I mean WHY NOT buy some and I'll try it on my setup comparatively to my meter???? Anyone see anything wrong with this idea?????

Here is a variety of the tapes
http://www.summitracing.com/search/...tion/harmonic-balancers/part-type/timing-tape

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas let me know I'll be willing to test this theory ASAP when I get the harmonic diameter figured and when I get the correct tape.

Just thinking out loud here trying to make things a little simpler!

Al

Accurate diameter is weak link here. Looks like close to 7 1/16 = 7.0625X3.1416 (pi) =22.187" circumference. Divide by 360 degree = .0616 inch per degree. If timing 9 degrees X .0616=.55" or about 9/16 . So for 9 degrees BTDC make a mark 9/16 before TDC mark. The line width you make is probably 1/16 or about one degree.

Another great idea. Now why didn't I think about this first. Good thought Al.. But we know your always working on something better than what we have now..

It may be a uniformed question, but what will activate the timing light? i.e. cause the light to pulse.

TahoeTom said:

Accurate diameter is weak link here. Looks like close to 7 1/16 = 7.0625X3.1416 (pi) =22.187" circumference. Divide by 360 degree = .0616 inch per degree. If timing 9 degrees X .0616=.55" or about 9/16 . So for 9 degrees BTDC make a mark 9/16 before TDC mark. The line width you make is probably 1/16 or about one degree.

Click to expand...

I got 7 1/16 too.

So lets look at this logically as you presented

7 1/16 = 7.0625 X 3.1416 (pi) =22.187

Now lets look at something different say a 7" diameter balancer

7" x 3.1416 = 21.9912"

Now take that

22.187
-21.9912
0.1958 difference

22.187
360
0.06163056 timing mark spacing as you said and calculated per 360 degree mark

21.9912
360
0.06108667 timing mark spacing as calculated per 360 degree mark

0.06163056 - 0.06108667 = 0.00054389" difference in marks DOH! This is through my calculations mind you so others can check them and please DO SO!

Thus if we take a 7" timing tape and thoroughly clean our harmonic balancer I feel fully confident that if applied correctly we can utilize the tape for those without an adjustable timing gun!

icanfixall said:

Another great idea. Now why didn't I think about this first. Good thought Al.. But we know your always working on something better than what we have now..

Click to expand...

Thanks Gary, and most likely cause your not OCD like me and don't have my head that won't stop spinning and thinking ever...

Ya I try like an SOB to do what I can for us here!

Thanks and someone PLEASE CHECK MY MATH damnit I'm outta school and old



Al

Mulochico said:

It may be a uniformed question, but what will activate the timing light? i.e. cause the light to pulse.

Click to expand...

No, that is a great question...if you read the very first post it refers to a FERRET pulse adapter that is available pretty inexpensive too. It reads the pulse from the injection event.

Thus the timing light is triggered by that. However, we only have a 0 degree mark and that's it, thus the need for an adjustable timing light to make that mark line back up correctly at 0 with the correct 8-9 degree offset in the light.

Now with the use of a marked harmonic or TIMING tape, we would not require the use of an adjustable light with the dial back feature. This makes it even cheaper to time as you can simply use any garden variety light!

Hope that helps you understand and answer your question.

Al

riotwarrior said:

No, that is a great question...if you read the very first post it refers to a FERRET pulse adapter that is available pretty inexpensive too. It reads the pulse from the injection event.

Thus the timing light is triggered by that. However, we only have a 0 degree mark and that's it, thus the need for an adjustable timing light to make that mark line back up correctly at 0 with the correct 8-9 degree offset in the light.

Now with the use of a marked harmonic or TIMING tape, we would not require the use of an adjustable light with the dial back feature. This makes it even cheaper to time as you can simply use any garden variety light!

Hope that helps you understand and answer your question.

Al

Click to expand...

Got it. It has been a long but good day. I have a ferret, if I had the marks for the timing I could have saved the $ for the light as I had a "garden variety light" already.

Thanks for clarifying.

Mulochico said:

Got it. It has been a long but good day. I have a ferret, if I had the marks for the timing I could have saved the $ for the light as I had a "garden variety light" already.

Thanks for clarifying.

Click to expand...

No problem, this also offers up an option for those with a meter like Kent Moore such as Gary's and mine along with a few others. If you have a line clamp and buggered mag probe you can use a garden variety timing light on the hook up loop.

Thus the tape is the cat's MEOW IMHO...

But someone please reconfirm all the math! I'm darn sure it's correct but two sure are better n one!

I'm going to check with parts store when it opens tomorrow on timing tape! I gotta do this for ***** n gigglz with the meter!!!!!

To the thirtieth decimal point before rounding

7.0625*π = 22.187498115977914746642418894411
7.0*π =21.991148575128552669238503682957

The difference is 0.196349540849362077403915211

spacing on 7.0625 0.061631939211049763185117830262254
Spacing on 7.0 0.061086523819801535192329176897101

But wait, thats floating point precision, lets try non floating point,,,,,,,, never mind I can't find a pencil...

Lets go to the 10th decimal place to improve the accuracy and cause less confusion for a 128 bit floating point calculator. Didn't know that calculators were not accurate below the decimal point did you?

0.0616319392 spacing on the 7 1/16"
0.0610865238 spacing on 7"
Difference,
.0005454154

Thats only a mole hair width over a hair width since I'm being so technical here ,

BUT it is cumulative, So at ten degrees, you will be at .005454154" off, thats more or less the thickness of heavy typing paper. My eyes aren't accurate enough at 3 feet the discern the difference of a paper thickness, even with my glasses on. So if there is one available for a 7" balancer, by all means it'll work, there is enough electronic delay in the ferret adapter, as well as the gun itself to cause an inaccuracy of over a paper's width. Thats not counting the mechanical slack in the IP, to cause that much discrepancy at different temperatures and operating speeds.

NOW, I have two timing lights, and was actually going to design an build a device to trigger my gun by the shock wave of the injection line, but you guys mean that already exist? A ferret adapter is it's name, where can one be had, I'll order one up tomorrow if it's under 100 bucks.

Here's one I believe. http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=FERV765-01

Somewhere else may have them cheaper.

Okay, while I believe that over 10 degrees the error will be negligible it begs the question: if you know how many inches per degree, why not make a couple marks at say 8, 8.5, 9, 9.5, 10 and scribe a line with a square? Or for that matter just at where you want to time it to save confusion? I guess it might be easier to do the tape while its in the truck.

This is great stuff Al. If I can save a few bucks on the tool budget that's more that can go into the truck budget. I'm all about that.

laserjock said:

Okay, while I believe that over 10 degrees the error will be negligible it begs the question: if you know how many inches per degree, why not make a couple marks at say 8, 8.5, 9, 9.5, 10 and scribe a line with a square? Or for that matter just at where you want to time it to save confusion? I guess it might be easier to do the tape while its in the truck.

This is great stuff Al. If I can save a few bucks on the tool budget that's more that can go into the truck budget. I'm all about that.

Click to expand...

Seems like a lot of work to crawl under the truck, do all that measuring and scribing when just a bit of brake clean (cover yer eyes boys) on the harmonic to get it, I'll say it again SURGICALLY CLEAN! and apply a strip of tape seems a whole lot simpler to me...I dunno maybe I'm smoking something funny but I'll take the tape already pre measured every single time.

Now...IFN the harmonic was OFF the engine I may indeed do as you suggest to have a marked balancer!

If you think you can see 1/2 degree timing difference with a light, OK I'll not argue!

Al

Josh Carmack said:

To the thirtieth decimal point before rounding

7.0625*π = 22.187498115977914746642418894411
7.0*π =21.991148575128552669238503682957

The difference is 0.196349540849362077403915211

spacing on 7.0625 0.061631939211049763185117830262254
Spacing on 7.0 0.061086523819801535192329176897101

But wait, thats floating point precision, lets try non floating point,,,,,,,, never mind I can't find a pencil...

Lets go to the 10th decimal place to improve the accuracy and cause less confusion for a 128 bit floating point calculator. Didn't know that calculators were not accurate below the decimal point did you?

0.0616319392 spacing on the 7 1/16"
0.0610865238 spacing on 7"
Difference,
.0005454154

Thats only a RED HEADED mole hair width over a hair width since I'm being so technical here ,

BUT it is cumulative, So at ten degrees, you will be at .005454154" off, thats more or less the thickness of heavy typing paper. My eyes aren't accurate enough at 3 feet the discern the difference of a paper thickness, even with my glasses on. So if there is one available for a 7" balancer, by all means it'll work, there is enough electronic delay in the ferret adapter, as well as the gun itself to cause an inaccuracy of over a paper's width. Thats not counting the mechanical slack in the IP, to cause that much discrepancy at different temperatures and operating speeds.

NOW, I have two timing lights, and was actually going to design an build a device to trigger my gun by the shock wave of the injection line, but you guys mean that already exist? A ferret adapter is it's name, where can one be had, I'll order one up tomorrow if it's under 100 bucks.

Click to expand...

Wow, I only wanted the math rechecked and confirmed as accurate or not, not recalculated to the 9th degree...wow 13 decimal points, I feel exceptionally lucky today, as 13 is my lucky number!

Thank you none the less for confirming that its accurate and would suffice using a 7" tape!

Ya 0.005" of an inch difference at 10 degrees is negligible and completely within acceptable tolerances with a light IMHO.

Ha, just called Lordco Auto parts, $10.00 and it's ordered for me, be here next week!

As for a timing adapter look at this thread here about what we are talking about
http://www.oilburners.net/forums/showthread.php?42782-Timing-a-7-3-with-a-Ferret-adapter

adapter here
http://www.toolsource.com/diesel-injection-detector-timing-adapter-p-73805.html

Some find them or similar units on Ebay for a lot less too

Al

laserjock said:

Okay, while I believe that over 10 degrees the error will be negligible it begs the question: if you know how many inches per degree, why not make a couple marks at say 8, 8.5, 9, 9.5, 10 and scribe a line with a square? Or for that matter just at where you want to time it to save confusion? I guess it might be easier to do the tape while its in the truck.

This is great stuff Al. If I can save a few bucks on the tool budget that's more that can go into the truck budget. I'm all about that.

Click to expand...

Seems like a lot of work to crawl under the truck, do all that measuring and scribing when just a bit of brake clean (cover yer eyes boys) on the harmonic to get it, I'll say it again SURGICALLY CLEAN! and apply a strip of tape seems a whole lot simpler to me...I dunno maybe I'm smoking something funny but I'll take the tape already pre measured every single time.

Now...IFN the harmonic was OFF the engine I may indeed do as you suggest to have a marked balancer!

If you think you can see 1/2 degree timing difference with a light, OK I'll not argue!

Al

i think i will just spend the $80 on a timing light and be done with it.....